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Never seen anybody ever discussing about them so here we're. Ben does his c a m i rasgueados backwards as i m a c. Traditional way doesn't always have to be the best way I think. I say this because recently I saw Ben playing Holy Wars by Megadeth, 60% of the video was him playing them rasgueados and I was amazed at them. His rasgueados looked better than a lot of people doing them the traditional way, but that's just my opinion
I wanted to know your unbiased opinions on this, is his way more effective ? It's clear that Ben has played a lot of traditional flamenco in the past, so saying that "it works great for his metal stuff" would not be valid I think :)
Posts: 15506
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to metalhead)
The guitarist that plays for El Gordito de Triana in Rito y Geografia episode called Fandangos naturales, does the rasgueado like Ben, so it is not totally unique as a concept (that dude has to use 5-stroke patterns in order to get the golpes in). There is a fundamental problem with the reverse sequence, which is how to punctuate with golpes opposite the index stroke. Consider a simple exercise, and one I have had to do for dance, ami ami ami, like a gallop but you do golpes with each i stroke. That would be impossible with Ben’s sequence. In holy wars he does a gallop as i down m down i up. Compare that to m down i down i up. The other thing to consider is the subtle dynamics. Typically the idea of rasgueado is to crescendo a bit into the accented beat. This is achieve naturally by the weaker fingers starting (pinky ring middle getting louder each stroke) and again, punctuated by the index finger’s final up down stroke. When I attempt ben’s version, the dynamics taper down after the strong start of the index. These details can be circumvented by using the thumb in combination, such that final golpes after pinky strokes occur with the thumb and golpe, and controlling dynamics more evenly etc. But to be totally honest, I would discourage students from doing this UNLESS they had already worked on it to such a high degree they can achieve whatever is needed musically.
The last thing is that there is a super important sequence that every flamenco players needs to master IMO, which is i up, ami down repeat…perfectly evenly as 32nd notes (8 per beat), or as galloping triplets accenting the i stroke down. I can’t imagine a way to achieve the resultant sound and speed required with the reverse sequence.
RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
Traditional way doesn't always have to be the best way I think.
I don't think so. Traditional way proved to be the best and effective over a period of many years, decades and centuries. Particularly in flamenco guitar playing.
Rasgueado sounds a bit different today. But the way we execute rasgueado remained the same.
RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to Ricardo)
the first 2 that u discuss, that is the golpe and the accent part, I had the same thoughts that there would be some problem. Not sure why the 3rd one would be a problem. One would simply do i up , and then i m a down, and repeat.
Barring these factors you pointed out, and considering economy and speed , do you think his are better? Do you think his speed can be matched by somebody who does them the traditional way?
I also don't know why Ben why would prefer doing this way. He did say in an interview that initially when he didn't have a teacher and practiced from recordings, he got the idea of rasgueados was doing i m a c from only listening to the recordings. But after that, I'm not sure why he didn't switch back to the traditional way. Like he had obviously practiced deeply everything, why didn't he practice the traditonal rasgueados, did you guys ever discuss about this?
Posts: 3472
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to Ricardo)
Richard Bruné, who played professionally in Mexico City, also does i-m-a-c. He told me that he didn't know people did it the other way when he started teaching himself.
RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
Not sure why the 3rd one would be a problem. One would simply do i up , and then i m a down, and repeat.
i up ima down will not sound the same as i up ami down. It reminds me of Chopin's idea saying each finger has a personality when playing piano. I think this also applies to playing rasgueado.
Posts: 15506
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
the first 2 that u discuss, that is the golpe and the accent part, I had the same thoughts that there would be some problem. Not sure why the 3rd one would be a problem. One would simply do i up , and then i m a down, and repeat.
The third one that is done extremely fast (twice the speed of Holy wars in some cases), there is a problem with the i up followed by i down stroke. The efficiency of the standard way comes from the fact the index is free to do a big sweep then upon retraction the a finger is already coming up, but i up does not need to do a full sweep. In order to do what you suggest, the i up will need to prepare the NEXT index down stroke as a full sweep and there simply is not enough TIME to go as fast as the other way. It can work fine of course for medium speed rolls of 16ths (like holy wars). Otherwise, the resultant preparation of i up i down will limit the sweep of the finger to only the treble strings and not have a good full sound. It would sound as “tinki-DUGAH, tinki-DUGAh” etc. rather than the traditional “tink-AHDUGAH, tink-ADUGAH”, etc.
quote:
Barring these factors you pointed out, and considering economy and speed , do you think his are better? Do you think his speed can be matched by somebody who does them the traditional way?
Not sure what makes you concerned about superiority, however, no Ben does not come close to what most maestros have achieved with it as an expression. Because he is self taught, as others mentioned that do it BACKWARDS (lets be honest about what is going on), it must be considered a COMPROMISE, that despite the short comings, he and others have done quite well with it that there should be no complaints or serious criticism. But make no mistake it is an adaptation due to not having a mentor show the correct way…or perhaps simple access to video performance (which is how I first corrected my own misconceptions about the technique. I had developed a down and up stroke version with all fingers on my own with no teacher…like c-a-m-i all down, then a up m up i up, a down m down, i down….as triplets LOL).
quote:
I also don't know why Ben why would prefer doing this way. He did say in an interview that initially when he didn't have a teacher and practiced from recordings, he got the idea of rasgueados was doing i m a c from only listening to the recordings. But after that, I'm not sure why he didn't switch back to the traditional way. Like he had obviously practiced deeply everything, why didn't he practice the traditonal rasgueados, did you guys ever discuss about this?
The answer to this is simple. He drilled the “wrong way” until he was satisfied with the sound. Practice does not make “perfect”. PRACTICE MAKES PERMANENT!!! It is much harder to UNLEARN old habits than to entrain new ones from scratch. I have a heck of a time getting seasoned classical players to rest the thumb opposite arpegios and tremolos vs an absolute beginner learning for the first time with no entrained biases.
I know Ben is your hero, and I greatly respect all his work and love him like a brother. But I can’t in good conscience promote for a student to learn the “wrong” rasgueado technique just because he and a few others found success with it.
RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
The efficiency of the standard way comes from the fact the index is free to do a big sweep then upon retraction the a finger is already coming up
I totally get now why that would be a problem. The A needs to be almost down when I is just coming back, this indeed would not be possible to do as 32nd notes with Ben's way
quote:
I know Ben is your hero, and I greatly respect all his work and love him like a brother. But I can’t in good conscience promote for a student to learn the “wrong” rasgueado technique just because he and a few others found success with it.
Thanks for the thorough explanation Ricardo, I may indeed have been a bit biased to consider Ben's way superior since I admire him (a lot)
quote:
Because he is self taught,
I hope you meant he is self taught for a 'short period of time'. I think he was learning by himself for a few months before eventually taking lessons from a guy named Marcos Carmona
RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
The last thing is that there is a super important sequence that every flamenco players needs to master IMO, which is i up, ami down repeat…perfectly evenly as 32nd notes (8 per beat), or as galloping triplets accenting the i stroke down.
I've seen you play galloping rhythm i up, ami down in Tango and Fandango. Where else can we play it?
Talking about imac rasgueado. At 3:20 Paco Serrano says something about it. Not sure what exactly. Something like only grande level guitarists play cami rasgueado backwards? Who is he referring to? Almost no one uses this reverse ras.
Posts: 15506
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I've seen you play galloping rhythm i up, ami down in Tango and Fandango. Where else can we play it?
Any time you have those rhythms in standard 3 or 4 meters. Farruca, Tientos, Taranto para baile, etc., Abandolao, Sevillana, Jaleo, etc. What I was discussing was for golpe punctuated strokes. The one you just brought up does not use golpes. Also, faster tempo gallops are done i up a i down.
Serrano laughs admitting that indeed there are advanced guitarists that do it in reverse (exactly as we have been discussing already). He is only pointing it out as a curiosity.
RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Traditional way proved to be the best and effective over a period of many years, decades and centuries. Particularly in flamenco guitar playing.
not long ago you were asking:
"Any advantages or disadvantages of mastering of 5 stroke rasgueado qamii? I'm thinking about mastering it. But I haven't seen Paco or other modern players doing it. So I'm still not convinced."
and then deciding:
"I almost forgot my "never mess with the pinky" rule. I decided to stick to amii."