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Hi, I didn’t see any posts that addressed the pros/cons of this bridge.
My new guitar, 2022 Jeronimo Perez has a 12 hole bridge and I find it a challenge to get the strings through due to the angle. Are there any advantages, sonic or otherwise?
RE: Advantages of a 12 hole bridge? (in reply to ejbrown)
You could string your guitar in the same configuration as a six hole and see which you prefer.
The twelve hole style is sometimes retrofitted to increase the break angle on older guitars if the saddle is low in relation to the tie block. That’s really only necessary if the strings are slipping on the saddle, though. A disadvantage to the 12 hole bridges is they seem to be more prone to string slippage, especially with carbon strings, and the resulting top dings. But that’s more just a thing to be aware of to be careful when stringing. There’s no right or wrong to it, it’s user and builder preference and a lot of makers do both.
Posts: 15653
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Advantages of a 12 hole bridge? (in reply to ejbrown)
As RobF points out it is one way to fix a guitar whose setup is not good (either due to initial flaw or neck/top movement over time). You want to lower the bridge saddle but end up with too shallow a break angle, then new holes can be drilled etc. A similar fix is to use string ties (no looping you feed the string through the tieblock once and tie it to a bead type thing). So as a repair it is ideal solution vs changing the neck angle or making a new bridge etc.
But Luthiers that build with this design of 12 or more (I have seen 18!) holes are thinking only about slightly increasing the Break angle by avoiding the traditional loop tie under the string that pulls up on that angled portion of string between the saddle and the tie block. Why? They are under the false impression that due to Physics, the break angle is proportional to sound volume output. Increase the angle increases downward pressure and more volume. This MIGHT have some small effect on PIEZO pickups placed under the saddle for acoustic-electric guitars, but I consider it a minor detail. More important is the flatness of the saddle and bridge Chanel such that you can properly sandwich the piezo so each string picks up equally. Many builders gave up trying that thing and use Mclish style pick ups, one under each string ala godin.
In the end the break angle does not increase volume of acoustic guitars, so I feel that the 12 hole design in bogus. What increases volume output is increasing the action such that you have more dynamic range. This is a trade off of course, since playability is affected by the action.
Posts: 1707
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
RE: Advantages of a 12 hole bridge? (in reply to ejbrown)
I like 12 holes because it makes it easy to tie the string onto the tie block with the end of the string pointing up--instead of the end of the string digging into the soundboard below the bridge. I melt a ball on the end of each treble string (with a lighter) to make it secure against slipping out. As on this classical bridge. (Is that big enough?)
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Hi Ethan, Thanks for your reply! The takeaway is that it really doesn't add anything sonically. That said, I did notice how the strings point up although I don't take a lighter to them. Boy you luthiers are a crazy bunch. I remember the first time I saw a luthier clean up an old guitar with lighter fluid I was blown away (no pun intended).
Also, I just recently became aware of your guitars via videos on this site and was blown away! The sound is so crisp. Great work! I noticed one was being sold at GSI and if I didn't already have three guitars I need to sell, I'd buy it. Ed
Posts: 1707
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
RE: Advantages of a 12 hole bridge? (in reply to oldskoolfool)
Hi, Ed.
Thanks for your appreciation of my guitars.
I wouldn't be sure that the 12-holes don't add anything sonically. The increased break angle could make a difference over 6 holes in some cases. Even if the holes are drilled at the same angle, the way strings are tied with 6 holes usually involves a loop under the main part of the string between the hole and the saddle which tends to pull it up, reducing the break-over angle.
RE: Advantages of a 12 hole bridge? (in reply to ejbrown)
quote:
I didn’t see any posts that addressed the pros/cons of this bridge.
My new guitar, 2022 Jeronimo Perez has a 12 hole bridge and I find it a challenge to get the strings through due to the angle. Are there any advantages, sonic or otherwise?
I have no idea where I got this from, whether I read it on the foro here or elsewhere, but I understood the point of the 12 hole break angle thing was to prevent buzzing with a lower action....
...or maybe I just made that up, I really can't remember!
RE: Advantages of a 12 hole bridge? (in reply to ejbrown)
On older guitars, I go with a twelve-hole setup if the originals have worn out too much. It's not always feasible to plug the original holes without major surgery, like cutting off part of the tie block, repairing and re-gluing it, and other extensive work. So, if plugging the originals and redrilling isn’t an option, I typically choose the twelve-hole system. This helps avoid further damage to the original holes, the tie block, and the guitar itself.
RE: Advantages of a 12 hole bridge? (in reply to ejbrown)
Twelve hole tie blocks do nothing. On a flamenco guitar is means the builder didn’t make the bridge correctly in the first place. The 12 hole thing is a trend that’s largely unnecessary if the tie block is low enough and the holes are drilled low enough.,
The break angle only needs to be about 7 to 8 degrees over the saddle for the bridge to work correctly. There isn’t any gain in effectiveness in break angle after about 10 degrees. The whole thrust of the concept of more break angle equals more performance is just anecdotal and is disprovable with both blind testing and physics.
Posts: 15653
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Advantages of a 12 hole bridge? (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
and whats the final result on the sound and/or Playability? I also have 12 holes on the new guitar , and i have to change the strings soon
cheers
on new builds, I consider it an aesthetic to increase value to customers that believe the myth. I would simply tie the traditional way and ignore the extra holes if it were my guitar. The main two reasons are to repair a guitar that can't be lowered, such as some of the old Condes that don't have any saddle room left and after shaving down the bridge to expose the saddle, a break angle of zero (straight across the saddle into the string hole) results in buzzing and intonation problems. The second would be if there is a piezo that is either weak or misbalanced, that extra downward pressure "might in theory" sandwich the piezo for better contact. But there has to be a lot of experimentation there that might not result in anything special versus just making a new bone.
to be honest, to fix a problem as the above the procedure I explained in the other saddle thread is better, where you fill and redrill the normal holes at a downward angle...OR you just get those string tie beads which achieve literally the same thing as the 12 hole thing is doing.
Another final thing I thought about since I have also seen an 18 hole variant, is that by drilling more holes into the bridge, doesn't that decrease the mass of the thing which might affect the tone/volume in some way? Maybe the effect is minuscule, I don't know, but it should make a traditional bridge a bit lighter.
Posts: 15653
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Advantages of a 12 hole bridge? (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
thanks i will try the normal way . put the 6 string on the second hole right, and leave the first open ?
umm, the one that is straight in line with the nut slot. I mean, it is already done to your guitar so do what you want with it. As I said, those string tie bead things do the same as the 12 hole. The traditional tie I use pulls upward on the string behind the saddle, maybe you don't want that? I am just saying that tiny angle does not improve the sound.
RE: Advantages of a 12 hole bridge? (in reply to ejbrown)
Took me a bit to figure out how to make a flamenco bridge that didn’t need 12 holes to be effective with my sledgehammer pulgar. Haven't done one since.
12 holes is an ok solution when needed, I would drill 6 extra holes from behind the bridge rather then string ties which to me are rather like gargling ****s, 12 of them 🎱
HR
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
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