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Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
Sabicas right hand technique was not authentic anymore. I don't know how long he was away from Spain? 50 or 60 years? He uses other non flamenco techniques in Malaguena video too. Look at what he does at 1:16. Sorry it's not right hand flamenco technique. Sabicas knew what he was doing. Demonstrated little bit showmanship as mark2 mentioned. So true what David Serva told estebanana about Sabicas "Everyone has to make a living somehow.”
Let's have a look at what Paco de Lucia saya about Sabicas' technique at the time of "Flamenco Puro," the first Sabicas disc released in Spain:
"Este hombre ha hecho muchíaimo. No solo yo, sino todas las generaciones que entra su labor y su dedicación durante 50 años. ...claro la manera de picar de esa velocidad y esa limpieza. Ese sonido que le saca sabicas a la guitarra, nosotros acá nunca nadie ni hay nadie que se lo saque, ni hoy en día ni en mucho tiempo, el sonido que tiene este hombre de guitarra. El gusto con que toca,con la técnica que ha tenido siempre. Desde que yo oí su primer disco yo cuando era éste yo ya sabía y era como sonar una cuerda Desde que yo ponía sus discos y me dió en la cama. Y para mí era como un sueño poder llegar algún día tocar así."
This man has done so much. Neither I, nor all the generations to come--his labor, his dedication during 50 years. claro the way of playing with such speed and purity...that sound which he brings out of the guitar, nobody here (in Spain) neither now, nor for a long time...the sound of this man of the guitar--the taste with whch he plays... the technique he has always had. From the time I heard his first disc (Flamenco Puro) I knew that was how to make a string sound. From that time I would put on his records and get in bed (to listen). it was for me like a dream to be able some day to play like that.
[my transcription and translation.]
Didn't Paco play harmonics at least once? Paco said, "What I play is flamenco, because I am flamenco." Not only was Sabicas flamenco, he was gitano por los cuatro cuadros.
Posts: 2528
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
For a while I thought you might really be Fred Sanford AKA JM, trolling us hard.
haha yeah i think we've all thought this in a quiet moment! its a sophisticated grift if true. cos its pitched just right. in the middle ground between outrageousness and ignorance.
hang on, are we actualy posting evidence to try to convince someone that Sabicas was the real deal?
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Sabicas right hand technique was not authentic anymore. I don't know how long he was away from Spain? 50 or 60 years? He uses other non flamenco techniques in Malaguena video too. Look at what he does at 1:16. Sorry it's not right hand flamenco technique.
Like I said, “ridiculous criticisms”, where you know just enough to be trolling and not enough to contextualize. We do get some amusement out if this however. After all, this was a thread YOU started to convince your OWN SELF that purchasing a USED flamenco guitar is a bad idea based on erroneous information, in order that you hold out just a bit longer from actually owning a proper guitar so you can begin your journey. Self confirmation bias in order to buy time? Here is an idea: buy a FLAMENCO guitar, zip the criticism lips, start learning.
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
No doubt Sabicas was the real deal. But we have to accept the fact that he used non flamenco techniques to attract a wider audience in a foreign country. We've seen in malaguena video. He integrated Chet Atkins artificial harmonics technique into his playing. And his up/down the fretboard ras technique. I wish I never saw it.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
But we have to accept the fact that he used non flamenco techniques to attract a wider audience in a foreign country. We've seen in malaguena video. He integrated Chet Atkins artificial harmonics technique into his playing.
Do WE? I don’t have to. And artificial harmonics Segovia used in Albeniz transcriptions, and I am sure he did not invent it either. But I don’t feel like taking things into the 1800s to prove that you don’t know what you are talking about and making unwarranted criticisms, as this is nothing new.
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
....Chet Atkins? ...Really?...Holy Crap!
For your convenience, here is a comprehensive description of harmonic technique from Fernando Sor's "Méthode Complète pour la Guitare" published in 1830. I link an English translation for your convenience. The harmonics part is on page 25.
You may object that this is a classical technique. So was much of the technique of Ramon Montoya. He hung out at Manuel Ramirez's guitar shop in Madrid, which was a gathering place for both classical and flamenco guitarists in the early 20th century. Much of Montoya's technique, the foundation of all subsequent flamenco soloists', is derived from classical technique.
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
....Chet Atkins? ...Really?...Holy Crap!
I doubt there are artificial harmonics pieces for classical guitar. When done correctly like T. Emmannuel artificial harmonics can create beautiful harp sound. Thanks to Chet Atkins T. Emmannuel has developed it to such an extent.
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
You know, I'm getting on for 60, and the older I get the more I realise I know absolutely fack all. And it's a lovely feeling to be a sponge, a sponge that does not require self-wringing of its malformed contents in vain attempts to impress others, like I used to.
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I doubt there are artificial harmonics pieces for classical guitar
not sure what you mean but you can check out "El Testament dAmelia" by Llobet and "Invocacion y Danza" by Rodrigo for artificial harmonics in the classical guitar rep
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to chester)
quote:
ORIGINAL: chester
quote:
I doubt there are artificial harmonics pieces for classical guitar
not sure what you mean but you can check out "El Testament dAmelia" by Llobet and "Invocacion y Danza" by Rodrigo for artificial harmonics in the classical guitar rep
Also:
Llobet: El Mestre; La Filla del Marxant; Cancao del Lladre Barrios: El Sueño de la muñeca Savio: Cajita de Musica Granados: Valses Poeticos - Melodioso; La Maja de Goya (middle section) Walton, bagatelle no 2 Takemitsu, All in Twilight Duarte: Variations on a catalan folksong (cançó del lladre); Tout En Ronde, #3 Tarrega: Alborada
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Eddie Van Halen was recording albums in the 1970’s chock full of artificial harmonics while Tommy was slumping over a toilet in a cheap hotel in Melbourne whilst too high on heroin to stand up.
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Chapter 3, page 50-51 paragraph 360 in Dionisio Aguado's first guitar method says:
Sequndo modo de ejecución. El Sr. Possa ha inventado otro modo de hacer les armónicos sobre las divisiones de los trastes, con el que se consigue la ventaja de formar una escala cromatica completa. Partiendo del principio de que la cuerda al aire tiene su armónico á la mitad de ella, infiere que la cuerda pisada debe tenerle, como en efecto le tiene, en la mitad de su correspondiente longitud, y asi el armónico del fa natural, por ejemplo, se hallara' sobre la 13a division de la cuerda sesta; el del fa # en la 14a, & En virtud de esto, el Sr. Fossa aplica la yema del índice de la derecha sobre el punto á donde corresponde el armónico, y al mismo tiempo pulsa la cuerda con el pulgar de la propia mano. Para ello estiende el índice en direccion ácia la cejuela, casi paralelo a las cuerdas, y las pulsa con el pulgar, el cual se queda detras acia la parte del puente, á tal distancia que' entre él y la yema del índice haya la mayor porción de cuerda que sea posible Para sacar los armónicos de las cuerdas al aire basta la mano derecha sola colocada del modo dicho; pero en las cuerdas pisadas, ademas de ser precisa la mano izquierda, se necesita mover la derecha en la disposicion indicada, y poner el índice de ella á la distancia correspondiente segun el traste en que esté pisada la cuerda, lo que el Sr. Fossa hace con mucha destreza. This was first published in Madrid in 1825 before Aguado moved to Paris
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
1 Samuel 16:14-23
David Plays the Harp for Saul
14 The Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord was terrifying him. 15 “It's an evil spirit from God that's frightening you,” Saul's officials told him. 16 “Your Majesty, let us go and look for someone who is good at playing the harp. He can play for you whenever the evil spirit from God bothers you, you can take an couple bong hits and you'll feel better.”
17 “All right,” Saul answered. “Let’s do this acid first then find me a chick with some righteous jugs and we shall seek who is good at playing the harp and bring him here.”
18 “A man named Jesse Cook who lives in Bethlehem has a son who can play the harp like a mother-fukcer” one official said. “He's a brave warrior, and grows some dope ass skunk weed in his garage- he's good-looking, he can speak well, and the Lord is with him while he jams on the harp.”
19 Saul sent a message to Jesse: “Tell your son David to leave your weed closet and come here to me to play the harp and rid my ass of gods demons ”
20 Jesse loaded a donkey sized joint into his chariot and with bread and a goatskin full of wine,then he told David to take the harp and a young goat to Saul. 21 David went to Saul and started playing for for him. Saul liked him so much that he put David in charge of carrying his weapons. 22 Not long after this, Saul sent another message to Jesse: “I really like David. Please let him stay with me.”
23 Whenever the evil spirit from God bothered Saul, David would play his harp. The part Saul would relax and feel better the most with is when David played artificial harmonics riffs and they hit the bong together with some fine bitches, and the evil spirit would go away.
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Haha Jernigan !
I found a reference from the Bible about artificial harmonics and then from Aguado predating Sor by five years. The challenge is in your court to find an earlier reference, if you can.
Interesting article. I would add that online trolling is primarily a passive-aggressive maneuver. This is not the same as what used to be called passive-aggressive personality.
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Haha Jernigan !
I found a reference from the Bible about artificial harmonics and then from Aguado predating Sor by five years. The challenge is in your court to find an earlier reference, if you can.
Nah...193 years ago (or 198) ought to be enough to make the point.
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