RE: 19th century spirit guitar

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estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

I built this solera to make the first (prototype) of this model in a few minutes not thinking it would last, not investing time is a proper hobbyists over production of a fixture. 😂

Now I have a need for a more stable solera, but instead of building a new one that looks formal and guitar magazine worthy, I tore down and rebuilt the fast and dirty original solera I threw on the junk pile.

I added substantial 1 x 4 spine and replaned the neck angle into the neck extension. It’s stiffened from end to end and I added some old vertical pillars to guide the ribs into some semblance of parallel and that’s it.

It’s not what the boutique guitar magazines are looking for, and that’s perfect with me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2023 1:43:32

ernandez R

Posts: 739
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

Most of my jigs fixtures etc are like this, took the plunge a disassembled a few I no longer use, fed the little bits to the wood stove and repurposed some of the useful plywood already.

It’s an effecancy to balance the time and the quality of a need. I had to back step a few times with my Anders inspired wall mounted belt sander the other day, remember how he used a small portable belt sander clamped in his bench vise: pure genius! I bought one just like his but built a wall mount and box to catch the dust but in keeping with the spirit it’s clamped in the box with a cheap bar clamp 👍🏼 Both of my fox like rib benders use Anders inverted bar clamp too, he was so, so Dutch ;)

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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2023 7:41:46

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

Danish really.

I did the clamp a belt sander to my bench a long time ago in school. For some reason this isn’t really good for the bearings in the sander to run without resistance of a surface offering friction to the sandpaper belt. I’m interested in knowing how long this sander will last. Let me know when the motor shaft bearings overheat and jamb.

Other than that carry on Bush Pilot

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2023 12:12:14

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

This thing has been going slowly due to unforeseen laziness.

But ready to close up. This guitar is going to be exhibited in Santa Fe NM in July at an art gallery. The guitar will be used to give a
short recital at the opening.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2023 5:42:41

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

I made a crimping tool out of an old set of Vicegrip pliers to create crimped liners as on many 19th century guitars. The tool works splendidly!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2023 5:45:59

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

I’ll get the back fitted this week using a plane and not a dish. We’ll see what it looks like assembled, if it has that mid 19th century mojo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2023 5:49:17

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

4 fans- the consolation is the big under the neck graft, it couldn’t be helped and probably is the part of the structure that’s not 19th century, but if anyone has seen a patch like that on an early Spanish guitar let me know. It’s because it’s I used a three piece top and I wanted to support the top seams running parallel to the fingerboard. It’s a backing for the top seams and a helper to the upper bout structure.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2023 5:54:59

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

The back ready to go on- the cypress is from New South Wales in Australia, not regular Wales.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2023 12:00:10

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

My friend Christopher Benson made the label design and printed them. He’s a painter and book publisher in Santa Fe.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2023 12:02:15

Firefrets

Posts: 111
Joined: Mar. 22 2023

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

As a builder, are you using any logic to the kerf block spacing?

I see them at many different spacings.
For example, the Valencian builders often used wide spacing (possibly to reduce damping maybe?). If going for side by side, why not use a continuous lining? Wouldn't side by side risk dry joints or buzzing? Are you looking for stiffness etc? Obviously I'm not highlighting your build as such, so it's more a general question, as to the various approaches.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2023 21:34:19

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to Firefrets)

Are you talking about the solid back liners or the glue blocks against the top?

* I reread your question after I finished lunch and see you are talking about glue blocks. It’s a bit bigger of a subject than it seems, or it has a few subtle points you should hit on to do it well.

We can go into it, but sure you. An use either a solid liner or a set of blocks. Lots to talk about. I asked Aaron Green why he switched from glue blocks to solid liners, he said I just got sick of putting them in one at a time. So there’s that, and some people have ideas about rim stiffness in a glue block vs. solid liner comparison. A lot of these things are really anecdotal because how do you test this stuff?

You can make classical and flamenco guitars with blocks or solid liners, but creating too stiff of a rim is anecdotally thought not to be a good idea for flamenco guitars, better for classical. And there’s a whole bunch of bogus suppositions that go with it. It’s just how you like to work.

One supposition that comes up is that stiff rims create better sustain, but you have to think about what does better mean. Sometimes sustain gets in the way.

I don’t think the 19th century fellows were thinking much about how the distance glue blocks effected sound, it was probably more about there being less labor involved with farther spaced blocks. I also tend to think that once the top and blocks are glued together it creates a fairly rigid structure or a rigid enough structure to allow the top to work. It’s only when you compare radical design differences that you really hear major sound changes. Think of the heavy rigid frame of. Smallman guitar that’s built to counteract the sheer force in string tension vs. my little Arias like eggshell.

The eggshell will have a very different general sound quality than the speaker cabinet.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2023 3:27:54

Firefrets

Posts: 111
Joined: Mar. 22 2023

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

The kerfing blocks / peones / dentalones.

What is the thought process, regarding spacing etc? Close together v far apart, and so on ... is there a logic to them?

Here's a Valencian guitar, in this case a Telesforo Julve...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2023 5:49:24

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

Interesting- those blocks were cut with a knife or chisel.

They started with a length of square wood like 5/8” square, maybe they planed it to that dimension. Then they cut pieces off the stick, about 3/8” wide, then turned them flat on the table and split them diagonally with a knife or chisel. That way there is less waste. It’s the most low tech way to get a triangular glue block.

Sometimes I use a small piece of wood to index a gap between my blue blocks and sometimes I even mix sizes. It doesn’t seem to make any noticeable difference. I wouldn’t space them as wide as your example because I want more structural connection between top and ribs. And no, I don’t think the glue blocks buzz if they are fitted properly.

The lower solid liner is made of Beech wood, very common on lots of old European and American work. Beech is often seen on old Spanish ‘factory’ guitars- a factory being a big work shop with some variation on an assembly line. Beech can also be seen in some well known makers guitars between the late 19th and mid 20th centuries.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2023 6:07:16

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

You can make classical and flamenco guitars with blocks or solid liners, but creating too stiff of a rim is anecdotally thought not to be a good idea for flamenco guitars, better for classical. And there’s a whole bunch of bogus suppositions that go with it.

I owned this Conde in the past, it had solid lining connecting the top to the sides. In my experience it was dry and had the kind of minimal sustain and minimal overtone that I like in a good dead Conde. It had the added benefit of not being orange.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2023 9:21:18

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

My 81 Conde has solid linings as well, while my 64 has single peones.
I had a Gerundino with single peones and a older one with a one piece quite thick solid rim.
Notoriously Santos also used solid linings in some occasions.
Far from me to say what works best. I can't say it. I can witness that the guitars I had with solid linings tended to had more punch.
I like the nitro orange finish on these old guitars while I don't like it in the new ones.
Can I ask why kind of bracing that guitar had?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2023 12:09:01

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to Echi)

quote:

I like the nitro orange finish on these old guitars while I don't like it in the new ones.
Can I ask why kind of bracing that guitar had?

Sorry I cannot remember the bracing. I did make a note of it, but can't find that.
The video makes the colour look more intense and more orange. In reality it was more like faded yellow/gold colour. This photo is nearer.

I'm likely to get chased off the lawn if I post any more Conde on this thread!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2023 12:35:23

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

I like the nitro orange finish on these old guitars while I don't like it in the new ones.
Can I ask why kind of bracing that guitar had?

Sorry I cannot remember the bracing. I did make a note of it, but can't find that.
The video makes the colour look more intense and more orange. In reality it was more like faded yellow/gold colour. This photo is nearer.

I'm likely to get chased off the lawn if I post any more Conde on this thread!

Who made it? It reminds me of one of David Serva’s Faustino, which he particularly loved. He had a Gerundino with a cedar top that was really distinctive. I can only describe the sound as ‘woody’ 😂- I just remember playing it thinking it was the best thing ever.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2023 14:55:06

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

Since this has diverged into linings I’ll post the progress of the other guitar I’m building. It’s a Blanca with a spline attached neck, which I usually don’t do, but was a customer request.

It’s going to have quite a thick solid liner.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2023 15:02:25

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Who made it? It reminds me of one of David Serva’s Faustino, which he particularly loved. He had a Gerundino with a cedar top that was really distinctive. I can only describe the sound as ‘woody’ 😂- I just remember playing it thinking it was the best thing ever.

It's a 1987 Gravina 7. It belonged to Tomatito. He was the original owner. Who knows who made it, Faustino?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2023 21:09:40

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

Faustino was more in the shop leading the business and selling guitars than actually making them, particularly from the beginning of the seventies.
From ‘76 on the guitars got more and more precisely made….
Gerundino is really underestimated. The very good ones he made are on pair with Reyes. Problem is around there are many Gerundino guitars not made by him.
Stephen this guitar is interesting. Is the top pine or spruce?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2023 23:48:11

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Faustino was more in the shop leading the business and selling guitars than actually making them, particularly from the beginning of the seventies.
From ‘76 on the guitars got more and more precisely made….
Gerundino is really underestimated. The very good ones he made are on pair with Reyes. Problem is around there are many Gerundino guitars not made by him.
Stephen this guitar is interesting. Is the top pine or spruce?

The way I heard it was that Mariano was funny and told better jokes so he worked the front room. Faustino was ‘dry’ and made better guitars, so he worked the back room where they made guitars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2023 10:25:29

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

I like the nitro orange finish on these old guitars while I don't like it in the new ones.
Can I ask why kind of bracing that guitar had?

Sorry I cannot remember the bracing. I did make a note of it, but can't find that.
The video makes the colour look more intense and more orange. In reality it was more like faded yellow/gold colour. This photo is nearer.

I'm likely to get chased off the lawn if I post any more Conde on this thread!

I like Conde’s, just not the fire engine red kind. Part of my dislike of them is that they are difficult to work on because the red finish is difficult if not almost impossible to match when you have to make a repair to a smashed section. And also that red color is hideous and brash. It’s like wearing a bright shirt with a yellow palm tree printed pattern that screams “I’m a dysfunctional psychopath coke dealer and you can have your way with my girlfriend because I’m too coked up to ****.”

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2023 16:10:18

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

Well it’s a box now, I’m debating over fancy purfling or non fancy, but I’ve almost talked myself out of fancy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2023 2:26:10

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

On the topic of glue blocks, think soon I’ll start a new thread to cover it because it’s worthy of a separate conversation.

One of my friends called this ‘the Batman model’ which kind of crushed my feelings, not. 😂
I used a headstock design that Torres used very early on which he took from a maker sho shop he allegedly learned in.

Which maker?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2023 2:29:46

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 19th century spirit guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

One of my friends called this ‘the Batman model’ which kind of crushed my feelings, not. 😂
I used a headstock design that Torres used very early on which he took from a maker sho shop he allegedly learned in.

Which maker?

José Pernas in Granada? I like the continuation of the headstock's straight line on the outer 'ears' on yours. Works great with the chevron matched veneer and the overall slight V shape of the headstock. In dialogue with the rhythm of the curves on the end, it's all beautifully done.