Wonder if this Conde is fake - advice on buying a luthier guitar

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sorin popovici

Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

Wonder if this Conde is fake - advic...

Hi everybody,

I have seen this guitar on reverb and I wonder if this one is a fake.

https://reverb.com/item/62517712-hermanos-conde-media-luna-2000-flamenco-negra

I did message the guy and he did gave me a bit blurry photo of the label.

I am kind of beginner flamenco player, I know a couple tomatito falsetas, some vicente amigo stuff, would say I have decent technique though my repertoire is not that rich (forgot a lot of classical stuff) as I have been playing for more than 10 years.. I play now a yamaha cg182sf. Nothing wrong with it but my action is 4mm and would like smth that plays better.

Would like to get a good guitar 2 - 3k gbp which will hold the value. Any advice appreciated. Not looking to buy new.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2022 12:04:41

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Wonder if this Conde is fake - a... (in reply to sorin popovici)

it looks like an original Conde negra of those made in the Gravina 7 shop in the years 2000.
For 50 years the Gravina 7 shop used to be the main shop of the 3 Conde brothers.
In the sixties they opened a second shop (Atocha) and in the eighties a third one (Felipe V).
Basically till 1989 the 3 Hermanos Conde shops were selling similar guitars.
From there on the things changed and the quality of the guitars sold in the Gravina 7 shop dropped a lot while the quality of the guitars made in Calle Felipe V kept a high standard (and high prices).
So we are speaking of an original guitar but made by a Conde shop in their worst years.
More bad guitars than good ones but with some notable exceptions.
They said some of the guitars sold in the Gravina shop in those years (like the one you are considering) were outsourced to small companies (Antonio Picado, Alfonso Checa, Vicente Sanchis, Ricardo Sanchis Carpio etc).

2000 - 2500 euro is the typical price in Europe for those guitars.
With those money you can buy definitely a good guitar in the 2nd hand market.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2022 12:47:26

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Wonder if this Conde is fake - a... (in reply to sorin popovici)

I checked out the advert and, while the asking price may be at the top of your range, the guitar appears to be in extremely good condition, approaching like new. If they offer a 48 hour trial period it might be worth checking it out. If you like the sound and playability you’ll be doing ok, even if it is stretching the budget a tad.

Also, don’t worry too much about the factory versus hand-made chatter regarding the various Conde shops. The shops were all completely capable of turning out good, high quality instruments and if it’s a good guitar, it’s a good guitar, and that’s all that really matters.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2022 16:27:36

sorin popovici

Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Wonder if this Conde is fake - a... (in reply to RobF)

Thanks guys,

Found another one, on this one there is no signed label but the label says Felipe V 2000...so if I got by what Echi is saying then should be superior to the one from Gravina, unless there is something dodgy

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294952040854

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2022 10:33:23

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Wonder if this Conde is fake - a... (in reply to sorin popovici)

Complicate answer.
The guy in my experience is a nice person and that guitar is a good one imho (much better than the previous one).
Things with old Conde get often complicated though and here you here have some shadows:
1. That guitar was built sometimes in the 90ties, in spite of what the label says: rosette and shape tell me it was built in '89-91.
2. The label is not signed, which means the guitar is considered commercially less valuable than a Conde with a signed label.
Truth si that these kind of guitars are exactly the same as the concert models; the downgrade in price often reflects a discount originally made to the seller. it's good to know the target price if you want to resell it though.
3. Check the action first. You may notice the bridge saddle has been shaved and is worryingly low. The action at the bridge in this case must be at least 7 mm and slightly less than 3 mm at the 12th fret.
I know the seller said it's at 2.7 mm at the 12th fret but you must verify this; he doesn't say the action at the bridge either.
Reckon that if you want to raise or lower the action of 1 mm at the 12th fret = 2 mm at the bridge.

Check these measures first otherwise you risk to pay later to fix the fretboard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2022 12:29:26

sorin popovici

Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Wonder if this Conde is fake - a... (in reply to Echi)

Ok, thought this is more simple...maybe I need to take it slowly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2022 8:53:09

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Wonder if this Conde is fake - a... (in reply to sorin popovici)

I remember your name from many years ago - welcome back :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2022 15:53:25

sorin popovici

Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Wonder if this Conde is fake - a... (in reply to hamia)

Thanks,

Nice to be back :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2022 16:42:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Wonder if this Conde is fake - a... (in reply to sorin popovici)

Weird stuff there, I agree it (the eBay one) looks older than 2000. The bone is a replacement (it is shorter in length for the original channel), which doesn’t mean anything negative, more likely a deliberate good set up alteration. The Price is in the correct ballpark even if it is is a copy (meaning if you don’t like it for some reason you should also be able to sell it and not lose money).

There is another 1994 conde very used that I bet sounds great!

. Over priced for the wear and that it is a student model, but still, I bet whoever played it was very active so the sound will be very seasoned and playability probably good too.

If you want a safe bet I would go with dan zeff guitars….he always gets some Condes in stock and vets them properly. I was at his house a long time ago and he had this bizarre conde where the 12th fret did not line up to the body as normal…the thing sounded great though. And if a guitar sounds weird he tells you.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2022 17:13:57

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Wonder if this Conde is fake - a... (in reply to sorin popovici)

If it is just the bone it shouldn't be a big problem.
It looks to me as someone has shaved down the actual bridge wooden bracket though. I am not sure really but this is my guess looking at the picture.
Usually the bridge itself is 6 mm tall + 2 mm of protrudent bone = 8 mm.
In this case it looks like the bridge has been been lowered a little (I'd say to 5 mm ) and the bone is at the same level or less than a mm more. As a consequence the strings have no break angle enough.
Even if the bridge wasn't altered you would have roughly 6 mm action at the bridge.
The cause is a wrong neck angle witch can be fixed only with a new fretboard.