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My project is to study the Solea cante melody and come up with some defining characteristics. I know there is no single fixed blue print of solea cante, only variations.
But I am going to post my uneducated findings! Hopefully others can too. I can't read or write music. I tried to figure it out by ear and named notes por arriba as if the capo wasn't there. I wrote out a simplified version just above the letra roughly in the right place. In the 'Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient' thread linked below, there is written notation for those that can read.
RE: Joaquin de Paula Cante Defining ... (in reply to orsonw)
Joaquin de Paula 1.
Characteristics: verse structure AB-BB-CD-CD
line 1: initial 5 syllables delivered altogether tonic note E End of first line A(4th degree), a G# leads to the A line 2: return to tonic E. G, F> leads to the E
Examples:
Juan Talega starts 0.52
A ¿A quién le contaré yo B la fatiguillita que estoy pasando B fatiga que estoy pasando B la fatiguillita que estoy pasando? C se la voy a contar a la tierra D cuando me estén enterrando C se lo voy a contar a la tierra D cuando me estén enterrando
-e---e------- e --e----e eg#..ab g# ¿A - quién - le - con-taré yo……o
g#-a------g#f-e----f---- g#fe--e---e la fatiguillita que estoy pasan- do…..
--e---e-----------g#----aba g# ..tiga que estoy pasando…………..
g#------aba-g#f--e---g#-----g#fe--e la fatiguilli- ta ---que estoy--pasando?
Indio Gitano starts at 1.27
A válgame Dios y no le temes B ni a la ira de Undebé B ni a la ira de Undebé B ni a la ira de Undebé C y sin embargo te asustas D flamenca, de mi querer C y sin embargo te asustas D flamenca, de mi querer
e--- e---e---e------e--g#--g#--a ,b,a,b, a,g# ‘Vál-ga- me Dios y no le --temes..............
aag#-gf#--gfe-gag-f-e-ee ni a la ira --de --- --Un-debé’
Posts: 14804
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Joaquin de Paula Cante Defining ... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
g#-a-----g#f#e----- f#---- g#f#e--e la fatiguillita que estoy pasan- do…..
This part and the repeat are more like F natural, as Whitney has it. That is what makes it sound Phrygian. The Indio Gitano version is more obvious use of the F#, and honestly, that would be his personal delivery of it rather than the normal thing other singers typically do IMO.
That repeating E tonic is certainly a defining characteristic unlike other styles that only do 2 or 3 E’s to start before climbing up the scale. At least when it comes to the old school singers….as I noted somewhere along the way some modern singers seem to confuse this style with some others, leading us to think that it might not matter how it is delivered. I suspect the old school purists care very much about that distinction, and little things like that will annoy them or explain why they might belittle modern cantaores that might otherwise be singing well in tune and expressively.
RE: Joaquin de Paula Cante Defining ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
This part and the repeat are more like F natural, as Whitney has it. That is what makes it sound Phrygian.
Thanks. I heard F, but I misnamed the note by mistake! I told you I was uneducated. I have edited my posted. I realise I had misnamed quite a few other notes too
It seems that G#>F>E move to the tonic, gives the Phrygian sound.
I relistened to Indio Gitano and maybe F is more what he intends, and edited my post. There are moments of expressive, fast sliding up and down the notes. Makes one appreciate the richness and depth of the cante, and how intricate and difficult it must be to sing flamenco well.
Posts: 14804
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Joaquin de Paula Cante Defining ... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
It seems that G#>F>E move to the tonic, gives the Phrygian sound.
So the Phrygian sound, relative to guitar chords, is achieve just by the F-E alone. While you do hear the G# in the first line, often G natural is what we hear later on. At 1:36 Indio Gitano does move G natural to F#. I had previously stated that you could do a B chord there as it is very prominent. The F# pulls us OUT of the Phrygian scale hence the term “Cambio” comes into play regarding that type of chord for guitar players. However, Indio’s use of it right there is not really intending to pull the guitar there, he is more embellishing the G natural.
You may notice the Transcription of Whitney shows Talega move UP the scale E F# G# to A. That is called, or relative to the guitar which fills in the rest, the MELODIC MINOR scale. Then we see G natural F and E moving down and up by steps. So the concept you sometimes hear in Theory classes is “melodic minor is raised 6 and 7 going up, and natural notes descending”…. As if this is some sort of music “rule” …then everyone gets bent out of shape that encounters a descending melodic minor scale as we use in Jazz. Well, it seems students miss the entire point (perhaps teachers too) that the harmony concept of the melody is dictating these practices. The solea chords move E or E7 to Am, then G-F-E. Basically mapping out the accidental pattern. If you listen and pay attention to the Martinete and other cantes sin guitarra you notice the same type of thing happening where there is a mixture of melodic minor and natural minor scales etc.. except this is all done in a supposed “Phrygian” Arabic style modal environment.
That thing you point to G#-F-E is similar to the hi jazz or Arabic Makkam we had once discussed, and I pointed out that this NOT what flamenco music does (not exclusively), the concept is instead changing equal tempered chromatic notes against the harmony, ie it is not a static scale. We do hear that intervallic relation at times, but when it is done it stands out. Normally it is that EFGFE figure that is plenty to get us that E phrygian chord we play. In the end, you see the voice using the notes EFF#GG#AB….almost the chromatic scale taking shape (as I have argued for in the past regarding what scale does flamenco music use?). Other styles make use of C natural. Extremadura makes use of the Bb. Frijones and Andonda get up to D natural, quino up to E the octave, apola extending above that even.
RE: Joaquin de Paula Cante Defining ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
That repeating E tonic is certainly a defining characteristic unlike other styles that only do 2 or 3 E’s to start before climbing up the scale. At least when it comes to the old school singers…
In video below 11.03 Three versions of Joaquin 1.
First line: Jose Merce 3 syllables E. Antonio Mairena and Manolo Caracol both do 5 syllables E.
Posts: 14804
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Joaquin de Paula Cante Defining ... (in reply to orsonw)
That guy has a lot of great videos actually. However, he misses some details with Fandango compas (he has two videos), which I cover in that Paco Tutorial I did a couple years ago. Then I noticed he tries a Paco falseta that was totally cruzado…but I let him know and in like one minute he agreed and deleted that falseta from the video. That was very impressive to me!
RE: Joaquin de Paula Cante Defining ... (in reply to Ricardo)
Yes I find his videos useful. He has some valuable insights and information. His name is Guillermo Guillén. He is a member on the foro but only posted a few times. As a foreigner in Spain he made some in roads. E.g. here he accompanies Rocio Marques when she won the Lámpara Minera in 2008.
RE: Joaquin de Paula Cante Defining ... (in reply to orsonw)
Here's where I'm at now:
Joaquin de Paula 1 Characteristics: verse structure AB-BB-CD-CD
line 1: initial 5 syllables delivered altogether tonic note E End of first line A(4th degree), a G# leads to the A line 2: G, F> leads to the return to tonic E.
Jose Merce misses off the first word of line A, so only 4 syllables E, also pauses after 3rd E. Both have clear G in the second line, then F to E.
Starting 11.03 Jose Merce Joaquin de Paula 1
A Con la pena que yo vivo B Que no podian vivir las criaturas B No viven las criaturas B No viven las criaturas C mira si mi pena es grande D me muero y no tengo cura C mira si mi pena es grande D me muero y no tengo cura
E..E.E...E....G#G#..ABABABA la pena que yo vi… vo………….
G#...A..G#AG..G GF E ...GGF E Que no podian vivir...Las cria..turas
E...E..E...E...E G#ABG# A No viven las criaturas
A...A....G E...G....GFE No viven las criaturas
Starting 12.10 Antonio Mairena Joaquin de Paula 1
A Es Verdad que yo tenia B Una quejita grande con Dios B Queja grande con Dios B Una quejita grande con Dios C Lo que tu haces conmigo D No me lo merezco yo C Lo que tu has hecho conmigo D No me lo merezco yo
E..E....E....E....E...G#ABABABA Es Verdad que yo tenia
GA....AGFE...FGFE...E....E Una quejita..grande con Dios
Posts: 14804
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Joaquin de Paula Cante Defining ... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
Antonio Mairena Joaquin de Paula 1
A Es Verdad que yo tenia B Una quejita grande con Dios B Queja grande con Dios B Una quejita grande con Dios C Lo que tu haces conmigo D No me lo merezco yo C Lo que tu has hecho conmigo D No me lo merezco yo
E..E....E....E....E...G#ABABABA Es Verdad que yo tenia
GA....AGFE...FGFE...E....E Una quejita..grande con Dios
This one is great example because of his delivery of the cambio. I used it in the solea elastic tempo discussion to prove that Mairena was not delivering the melody in such a deliberate way to emphasize accented beats, but rather however he wanted in the moment (ie libre or free from some strict coupling to the compas of the guitar).
Although there, if you keep reading, I was addressing Romerito, the subsequent exchanges with Norman are very interesting. Part of it, I felt then, and still do, is the freedom of Mairena there was ok or acceptable, but other singers, such as Oliver de Triana, are a mess….this was a general opinion maybe, but I felt the opposite that they are both doing the same exact thing and it only comes down to the guitar relative to it.
Here’s Oliver, solea at 26 min, his first style, to me is similar melodically to serneta but different in the standard delivery. Whole program is interesting. Anyway, try to count that guitar compas
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