One for the scientists

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Brendan

Posts: 307
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

One for the scientists

Dance teachers have been doing it WRONG! Science proves:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15APjLoPrrMdDYZFVuMPbHBTI_3cd3EDw/view?usp=drivesdk

Rhythmic Precision in Zapateado Flamenco: The Influence of Teaching Methods
Rosa de Las Heras-Fernández, PhD, Víctor Padilla Martín-Caro , PhD, María Espada , PhD & Zulema de la Cruz , PhD

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2022 11:32:34

orsonw

Posts: 1739
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to Brendan)

"The research hypothesis is that zapateado teaching methodology based on syllable matching (word-rhythm) and the analytic strategy could be better teaching options than traditional ones."

I had thought that it is traditional to use syllable matching 'takita' etc..? I have seen many dancers (and singers, guitarists and palmeros) vocalise the rhythm. Interesting that the subjects chosen for this study apparently did not use that method. "12 professional flamenco dancers, between the ages of 25 and 51, working in different locations in the city of Madrid during 2018."

Also interesting that using an analytic approach was not 'traditional'.
"analytic approach in which the exercise or choreographed fragment is broken down into parts and each one is worked on separately from the other elements."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2022 12:17:52

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to Brendan)

From the abstract of the article you posted:

“The research used a quasi-experimental approach.”

From Oxford languages:

“Quasi”

“...apparently but not really.”

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2022 12:27:34

orsonw

Posts: 1739
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

From the abstract of the article you posted:

“The research used a quasi-experimental approach.”

From Oxford languages:

“Quasi”

“...apparently but not really.”

Quasi-experimental means the subjects are not randomised to groups, but it is still a valid methodology. All methodologies have their limitations and strengths. No design is perfect for all contexts and applications.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2022 12:36:59

orsonw

Posts: 1739
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to orsonw)

But shall we avoid an off topic philosophy of science discussion

.

Here's Agueda Saavedra, for example. Starting around 3.21 you can see her vocalising the rhythm to herself.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2022 12:45:32

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

Quasi-experimental means...

I was poking fun at the notion that any study related to flamenco dance could be considered scientific. ;-)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2022 15:09:40

Brendan

Posts: 307
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to orsonw)

Quite. I wondered about all those features. I guess I posted this so that people in the know can tell me how far off they are. Everybody does some syllable-matching, but maybe doing it systematically like tabla players makes a difference. I had heard that dancers sometimes keep contratiempo regular by playing the on-beats with their teeth.

There is loads of scientific research into flamenco, all of it desperate for replication.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2022 18:12:40

Morante

Posts: 2013
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to Brendan)

We once had an Americana here who was writing a doctorado on jaleo. It was a load of rubbish

Jalear bien is very difficult and very few can do it well. She was not one of them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2022 18:51:17

kitarist

Posts: 1619
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to Brendan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brendan

Dance teachers have been doing it WRONG! Science proves:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15APjLoPrrMdDYZFVuMPbHBTI_3cd3EDw/view?usp=drivesdk

Rhythmic Precision in Zapateado Flamenco: The Influence of Teaching Methods
Rosa de Las Heras-Fernández, PhD, Víctor Padilla Martín-Caro , PhD, María Espada , PhD & Zulema de la Cruz , PhD

I don't know, I looked at it and their table of results is not conclusive IMO (I am ignoring the self-evaluation AMPET scores as less important than actual objective improvements - though the control group has higher scores there across the board). Look at all the apparent improvement (lower SD (standard deviation) i.e. more-even zapateo in post- compared to pre-) in the control group in more categories. And the absolute values of SD are lower in control post- compared to experimental post- for their chosen highlighted 'sole-heel quaver' category. And two categories in the experimental group get worse, and by more, compared to only one in the control.

Or if we ignore the single-digit +/- changes as likely by chance given the small groups, we are left with two categories improved and one worsened in experimental, and four improved and none worsened in the control. How is this convincing us that the novel approach is showing "better results [] for rhythmic precision"?

I wonder if I am missing something important or skimmed through it too quickly, though

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2022 20:38:43

Brendan

Posts: 307
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to kitarist)

Practicing sole triplets is evidently a bad idea however you do it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2022 10:10:50

Ricardo

Posts: 13944
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to kitarist)

Paco de Lucia set Farru straight in the documentary la Busqueda. Metronome. For a traditional flamenco dancer it was a revelation. Please note, Paco did not say “compas CD” or a fancy metronome but a basic click version.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2022 13:55:36

estebanana

Posts: 9000
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to Brendan)

You’ve heard of Metrosexual? A person who is grounded in cosmopolitan sophistication to the point of it being a substitute sexuality.

Now there’s Metronomesexual

A person so practiced at keeping time with a ticking metronome they turn people on around them simply by being on time.

Dancers:

“Dang girl, that Ricardo is so in the time groove it gives me a lady boner.”
“ Hell yeah. He’s a straight up metronomesexual. Batteries included bitches.”
“Ain’t gotta be a scientist to feel them semi quavers.”

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2022 17:40:59

kitarist

Posts: 1619
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to Brendan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brendan

Practicing sole triplets is evidently a bad idea however you do it.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2022 18:01:39

kitarist

Posts: 1619
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
“Dang girl, that Ricardo is so in the time groove it gives me a lady boner.”
“ Hell yeah. He’s a straight up metronomesexual. Batteries included bitches.”
“Ain’t gotta be a scientist to feel them semi quavers.”

The obvious next line:

'I am quavering all over, nothing 'semi' about it!"

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2022 18:04:28

Brendan

Posts: 307
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Paco de Lucia set Farru straight in the documentary la Busqueda. Metronome. For a traditional flamenco dancer it was a revelation. Please note, Paco did not say “compas CD” or a fancy metronome but a basic click version.

And then what happened? All the serious dancers saw this and started using metronomes like musicians do, dance classes no longer sounded like rain on a tin roof and we could talk to dancers about tempo using metronome markings, to the relief and satisfaction of all parties?

Was that how it went?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2022 23:30:23

Brendan

Posts: 307
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to estebanana)

Nothing more satisfying than playing in the pocket.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2022 23:32:41

estebanana

Posts: 9000
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to Brendan)

Is that a metronomesexual joke?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2022 0:46:43

Ricardo

Posts: 13944
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: One for the scientists (in reply to Brendan)

quote:

All the serious dancers saw this and started using metronomes like musicians do, dance classes no longer sounded like rain on a tin roof and we could talk to dancers about tempo using metronome markings, to the relief and satisfaction of all parties?

While Farru admitted improvement (and was even more surprised without telling anyone he was doing it that Paco noticed he had improved), the truth is… dancers don’t watch documentaries about lowly guitar players.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2022 12:09:20