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RE: Building two classicals on a deadline- will I make it?   You are logged in as Guest
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constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

20th fret? Such an interesting problem to resolve because there’s no standard traditional way of doing it. Only rule, make it look like you intended it.

It’s ok to pare down a neck at the end of the day when you’re only working by shop light after sundown. I stop there and wait until the next day because for me nothing is better than coffee and morning light to work on the final shape of a neck.


I work similarly on the neck and fingerboard. It's good to take a long break before doing the final neck shaping. One other rule I have about 20th frets: Leave room for getting a hand inside the soundhole (which I need for positioning and removing a caul when gluing on the fingerboard).

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2022 16:28:45
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Sure, but why make life easier when you have an opportunity to mess yourself up? 😂

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2022 0:29:54
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 20 2022 8:55:31
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2022 8:55:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Just for those who don’t build ~

The final scrape, shape and sand.

It takes from 3 to 5 hours for me and entails going over every square inch with an eye to fix and noodles, nooogies, bumps or wonks. This is where you impart your hand in the shaping of binding edges and the curves of the heel. Where you decide how the heel cap should look, or how the headstock details should feel. If some builders aren’t that sensitive about this stuff, but everyone’s different. Some makers headstocks are ‘cookie cutter’ designs that can be mowed out with a pattern and a router, and others require meticulous have knife work.
The elegance has to be designed in from the first drawings in pencil when you decide how your model will look, but later you have to work to those lines in 3 dimensions. Getting every micro bump and plane trued out.

You even have space to interpret your own design depending on how you feel in the moment, but it’s got to be clean and strong.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2022 4:42:26
 
ernandez R

Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
The heel always takes some thought, round like Torres or that more modern sharp shape. Once I decide I like to hit it hard then let it sit, seems I airways start out a little pudgy but I know lean is better.
I like a sharp binding edge, rolled over too much looks ‘soft’, I don’t know, guessing you have a better way to describe it, you always do.
I hold the guitar in playing position and roll over the edge where my fit arm crossing the lower bought binding and soften that edge almost imperceptibly but enough to take the edge off of playing for an hour or two.
I see more and more of my flaws but you know how it goes, you always find a few more once the shellac starts to shine.


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2022 5:04:17
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to estebanana) 
The ebony sides are spectacular.

Twenty frets:

The scale is 650mm plus a little compensation. Action is 4mm on the sixth string at the 12th fret, about 3.5mm on the first. The perspective of the photo makes the 12th fret look like it's not right over the edge of the top, while in fact it is.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2022 21:40:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
Richard,

Your lovey Garcia - I think it satisfies both mine and Ethan’s 20th fret rules. Clever Abel.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2022 3:49:28
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Here’s some fun stuff~

The carving marks and facets on the heel have to be blended into smooth transitions. I use a hand made rasp from India that I bought around 2002 and cheap tool shop. The rasp only cost 2 USD and. And came from a barrel of rasps that were considered lower quality and not ‘precision’ made.

The reason I like it is because it’s hand cut, the small times on this rasp were cut by hand using a sharp object when the steel was hot. Hand cut rasps don’t ‘track’ because the tines or teeth are slightly irregular. Sometimes machine cut rasps have a pattern of teeth that get caught in their own tiny furrows from the previous stroke and track into those marks. It’s actually harder to control a machine cut rasp than a non precision hand cut rasp.

Heels are small sculptures. Then you scrape them smooth and get up close to make sure didn’t miss anything.







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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2022 6:30:07
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Self portrait with Indian rasp





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2022 7:18:47
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Once I took a guitar to Gene Clark for a critique. He pointed out some things I didn’t see or know how to plan for. By this time I had make about four guitars, and they were not totally ‘clean’ yet. It actually took me years to make a clean guitar because I’m a slow learner I guess. Gene said his third guitar was clean, it took him three tries to get it right. As I was standing next to his bench looking at my immature work he said to me, “Don’t feel bad, guitar making is a minefield of pre-event decisions you learn to make before you get the path correct.”

He has these little axioms like all the good luthiers, they see ten moves deep in the game.

Want to see a particular type of ‘mine’ you have to not stumble into?

The ‘glue ghost’ happens when you leave glue on a surface that will take exterior varnish material, like French polish. I use varnish as a verb, varnishing is applying a finish. I suppose lacquering isn’t a form of varnishing, but I think of shellac with French polish a varnish activity. You have to examine the exterior surfaces and scrape or hand off and residual glue film no matter how thin. Sometimes a wash of alcohol shows opaque glue ghosts and you can lightly scour them out with water on a little piece of cloth. Whatever you do to make a clean guitar you have to evict all the ghosts. If you miss one it will mask the finish from reaching the wood and this creates a semi opaque blob under the finish. On this guitar I must have handled it with a trace of wet glue on my finger, because it left a small print on the cherry back.

Once I called Gene on the phone 📞- and says what are you doing, can I come over? He said sure, I’m just painting a guitar. I thought he was really putting paint on a guitar so I rushed over to see what the heck he meant. Turns out he was just French polishing a guitar, varnishing it with rubbed shellac. But he liked to call it ‘painting’.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2022 0:48:28
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Hopefully I chased all the ghosts away before painting ~



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2022 0:56:51
 
davewphx

Posts: 126
Joined: Jul. 11 2011
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Stephen, you dont mean Gene Clark of the Byrds? Must b another Gene clark. Back shot looks great. The handmade rasp is very interesting. You should resell them as custom high dollar items.🤗

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Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2022 3:00:10
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to davewphx) 
Not of the Byrds, Eugene Clark of the Nyrds

Clean Gene or Gene the Dean. He had a few nicknames. He was a fairly important American guitar maker who’s not as well known as some others. He began making guitars in 1959 and soon moved from San Jose to NYC where he was very highly regarded in the downtown building and repair scene. He influenced Michael Gurian another important guitar maker, and helped David Rubio learn some finer points of finish work. It was Rubio who called him and asked him to come to NYC to work and Gene actually gave him some guitar making lessons or tutoring. Not something well known.

Then he left NY and came back to California about six years later and kept building guitars. In the late 1970’s he went back to work in the merchant marine as a radio operator. This is why he’s probably not well known like Lester DeVoe. Gene stopped building guitars from about 1980 to 1997 and although prior to that hiatus he had made between 180 and 200 guitars he didn’t hop on any trends in the 1980’s and he got passed by.

Later after he began to build again in 1997-98 he was called to give demonstrations and talks at he American luthiers conventions. His talks were influential to people looking to make traditional Spanish guitars because he had a lot of knowledge because he saw and worked on so many important mid 20th century guitars in NY in the 1960’s. For example Barbero’s were in common circulation and not thought of as museum pieces yet.


The great Tom Humphreys the irascible guy who’s known for developing the elevated fingerboard guitar said he owed a lot to Gene. They met at a luthiers convention a few years before Tom H. died and he told Gene that the only reason he could make a living in NYC building guitars is because Gene moved back to California and there wasn’t as much competition. It was a kind of joke with a modicum of truth to it.

I have many Gene stories, myself and Stewart Port a repairer in Oakland were Gene’s most serious students during his 1997-2002 phase of building in Berkeley California. We both spent a great deal of time at his shop. After that I went to work with Stewart in Oakland, Stew is also an alumni of the Matt Umanov shop in NY. He worked as a repairer in Matt’s shop for seven years. Gene, Stewart and a low profile lute maker were my teachers. Stewart and lute man are still good friends.

Gene was an odd guy in some ways, but a fascinating guitar maker when he was on his best. Once a very nice guitar of his was shown to Antonio Marin and Sr. Marin thought it was so good he wrote a quick note and told the owner to give Gene best regards on a beautiful guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2022 5:04:43
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
A Gene Clark rosette circa 2000 to 2003

And my rosette 2022 inspired by his square tile.

His colors and range of darks in the rosette were planned.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2022 5:47:10
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
His is a good bit more mysterious, but when you see my rosette in total with the face of the guitar it’s passable.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2022 5:48:52
 
ernandez R

Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Wow Stephen, that is a vary nice rosette. It looks hood up close but still holds one’s attention farther away, and seems to be a good kind of copying the master without cloning.

Do you get your veneers locally as in Japan or? Thinking I may have asked you this before?

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2022 6:57:11
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
It’s a very nice guitar indeed. I particularly like the rosette, the wood you picked for the back and the whole artistic coherence of the thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2022 9:55:22
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Into the first day putting varnish on my boxes lol 😂



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2022 13:02:29
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to estebanana) 
There's a Gene Clark classical for sale at Rosewood Guitars in Seattle. I played it a couple of years ago when I passed through on the way back from Alaska. It's in perfect condition, and it's a great guitar.

http://rosewoodguitar.com/classical-guitars/eugene-clark-2007/

At least that's what I thought when I played it and heard it played. I learned long ago that to really judge, you should take along a guitar you are familiar with, to evaluate the sound of the room and to compare instruments. We were in the dealer's display room, which I assume was not meant to make a guitar sound bad.

I played a few others, and liked Gene Clark's the best.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2022 22:36:34
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
Richard,
I’m surprised if they still have it, if I had an extra 5 grand I’d get it myself.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2022 23:19:28
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to estebanana) 
Shows how much the price depends upon name recognition. They had some well known names I didn’t like as well Gene Clark’s.

I have two classicals one appraised at 14 1/2 times the price of the other. I think that on a blind trial most players would prefer the cheaper one. The more expensive one is a better guitar in my opinion, but only if you can figure out how to get its best sound out of it—which is not easy.

But 14 times better?

I have a flamenco which is 4 times the price of another. I like the expensive one, but about half of the experienced players who have tried both, and one well known luthier think the cheaper one is better.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2022 1:27:33
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
French polishing- still don’t know which species this is.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2022 2:13:15
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
A note on neck shaping:

I learned this from a violin maker. Once the neck is shaped and the fingerboard is on, close your eyes and hold the instrument in playing position. Let your left hand and thumb move over the neck like you’re playing. Do a final check on the neck transitioning from the edge of the fingerboard to make sure there are no micro bumpies or tiny flat spots you didn’t catch. Since we make guitars, I leave that final blind check until after the frets are in and the ends have been smoothed and polished. Then concentrate on the final shape before the final French polishing or whatever.

This one felt like it needed small adjustments to make the neck work perfect.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 27 2022 6:33:38
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
I don’t have any thought about how this picture essay should go. This bridge is getting the pore filling routine. Put shellac on it, let it dry a bit. Pounce some fine powered pumice on it and grind it around with a piece of cloth wet with alcohol. The pumice is an abrasive that cuts into the surface of the wood creating a mixture of pumice, shellac and wood goop. Then with the rag you work it back into the pores of the wood and let it dry. It’s a creating a filler paste right in the surface of the bridge and after it dries you can cut it back with a scraper or sandpaper to reveal a wood surface with the pores of the grain filled up. The perk of pumice is that it’s volcanic glass and goes clear when it’s wetted with alcohol.

An excellent Pore filling job with pumice is probably 50% of the success of a good French polish on rosewood.

The bridge blank I choose was one I slotted and prepared last year, it was ready to glue on the tie block cover and drill string holes. Then shape the wings and fit the bottom to the guitar top. That was an afternoon of work.

The bridge blank was quite wide at 1-1/4” ! A bit wide, but I carved it down to 21 grams. Part of getting it to that weight was clipping the back edge of the wings at an angle to drop weight. So it’s a function of utility that the design ended up looking like an aircraft wing.

The bridge is 7” x 1- 3/16”



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 28 2022 12:12:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
I’m at the end of the French polishing process, but I’m not going to bore you with it. There are numerous other places you can geek out over shiny rosewood things.

I want to bore you with this tool/ pattern I designed and had fabricated by a guy who makes wood planes.

I created it because I don’t want to use a router to cut the finial at the top of the headstock. I think cutting it with a router is too ‘cookie cutter’. I want to actually cut it with knives and chisels. I devised this pattern form in order to score the line on the back and front of the headstock in the same exact place on both sides. Then cut it rough to the lines with a band or coping saw and finish it by hand.

It’s made so you can index a chisel right on the edge of the pattern to slice and pare off wood right to the line. Then knife or chisel from both sides towards the middle. Now I can impart a little individual pizazz of carving into each headstock, but still remain consistent with one well indexed design marked out on the wood. This is important to me because it makes each headstock slightly different, but stylistically absolutely consistent.

The practice piece was the first one I tried and I experimented with a design for a carved out headstock, still thinking on that… but soon will employ it into my work.









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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2022 10:55:56
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
I’m going to make my deadline, almost there.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2022 9:26:34
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
*whew*
I’ll set them up Saturday/Sun.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2022 9:28:50
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Very nice Stephen. Not easy at all to match different wood textures and colors harmonically into a coherent piece.
A nice guitar with a strong identity.
How does it sound?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2022 11:51:05
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to Echi) 
I’ll string them up Saturday, still a bit of rubbing out and details on the FP.
A friend of mine here who is a fine guitarist will play them after the strings stretch. A week or so I’ll have a video. They have to be sent out by the 18th- 19th but I think I’ll make it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2022 14:07:10
 
JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Building two classicals on a dea... (in reply to estebanana) 
Nice work maestro. Like the Gene Rosette a lot. Also nice tuna fish?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2022 16:06:00
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