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Rings of Power true Tolkien spirit or? ( Anglophone Content Warning)   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

Posts: 8737
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

Rings of Power true Tolkien spirit o... 

I’ve been watching the Rings of Power, next us episode 8 the season finale. The first few episodes I wasn’t hooked, but after ep. 3 I became interested enough to see it out.


One of the aspects of the tale telling is the computer Gen sets and effects, not because they are stunning, but because I’m game for anything that illustrates or gives form to a city or creature from Middle Earth. Even if that scene is portrayed out of Tolkien original time sequences. Why? Because mentally I can take that image and make plug it into the time sequence as he wrote it. And it’s interesting to me to compare the image created by the studio with the images of characters that I created from reading the books. A kind of super conglomerate character emerges instead of being fixed on one images for a character. In the way that Robin Hood could be played by more than Errol Flynn.

My question then is, without revealing spoilers:
Rings of Power, interesting non Tolkien sequenced extension of his tale telling, or crappy abomination?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2022 4:01:20
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

I really like it. Of course, I got reamed for questioning the other movies having not read any book. 😎

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2022 5:14:03
 
estebanana

Posts: 8737
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to Ricardo

It’s an odd situation, the Tolkien estate and living heirs retained the rights to the Silmarillion, the book which outlines the ages of Middle Earth before the popular LOTR films. But the Amazon series consulted with the Tolkien estate and heirs for R of P, and it’s based on other collections of stories about ME and parts of the Silmarillion.

I like it, and I have read the books, but I’ve also heard very hardcore opinions against it. The analogy I would make of these opinions is that Amazon ruined Tolkien intent with the same level of destruction Rosalia brings to dissing flamenco. I’m not so critical of the Amazon production, but framing it for comparison with the much heavier cultural damage to flamenco with Rosalia making a mockery of cante, you get a feeling for the scope of how much some Tolkien aficionados hate it.

I’m looking forward to next weeks episode.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2022 6:25:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

It’s an odd situation, the Tolkien estate and living heirs retained the rights to the Silmarillion, the book which outlines the ages of Middle Earth before the popular LOTR films. But the Amazon series consulted with the Tolkien estate and heirs for R of P, and it’s based on other collections of stories about ME and parts of the Silmarillion.

I like it, and I have read the books, but I’ve also heard very hardcore opinions against it. The analogy I would make of these opinions is that Amazon ruined Tolkien intent with the same level of destruction Rosalia brings to dissing flamenco. I’m not so critical of the Amazon production, but framing it for comparison with the much heavier cultural damage to flamenco with Rosalia making a mockery of cante, you get a feeling for the scope of how much some Tolkien aficionados hate it.

I’m looking forward to next weeks episode.


Do the same haters not accept the trilogy (or trilogies if you count Hobbit) as equally bad? In case you haven’t noticed, it has forever been the case that book readers criticize film versions as inferior in all but extremely rare cases, such as To Kill a Mockingbird, and….well, that is it really. So far I only have the first Ring Trilogy film in mind, and in particular the opening montage, that this new series needs to honor with continuity and some ‘logic”. So far, so good IMO. Elrond the actors don’t look alike, but the blonde elf is very good IMO. And the feral “Gandalf” or whoever he is, is great. Perhaps they have an opportunity to “fix” the ridiculous Ghost Army problem of Part 3. These things have been accomplished….such as the amazing Cobra Kai comedy, or dark comedy rather, that did mind boggling excellent writing to repair not one, but 2 complete crap B movie sequels. All for the sake of a single beloved work (that would be the first Karate kid film), and a longing for the 80’s nostalgia that has been making the rounds on TV these days. Unheard of, they deserve awards just for that. So at this stage I have plenty of hope for the series. The hobbit movie was a huge let down for me…waiting so long for that dragon to appear was ridiculous. They could have chopped the whole trilogy down to a basic 1.5 hour film.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2022 11:58:03
 
JasonM

Posts: 1924
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

Been waiting for all the episodes to release so I can binge watch it. Like the yester years of streaming.

I’ve read most of the Books and over all thought the movies were pretty good. Like you said, it’s nice to see how things compare to what your imagination created while reading the book. Peter Jackson injected a lot of cheese into various parts , and of course the movies are more like Cliff noted for the books. People pissed off Tom Bombadill didn’t make it in the movie. Like really trashing the series just because of that! One thing the haters forget is that this is the story that everyone else copies, not the other way around. It’s the OG
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2022 22:23:56
 
estebanana

Posts: 8737
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to Ricardo

My dissatisfaction with the Hobbit films was that the Goblin king was such a cartoonish presence. But the Hobbit and LOTR trilogy has been critically reviewed ad naseum, it is what it is at this point. Although Bombadil was a massive oversight and an important part of the story line.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2022 4:41:25
 
estebanana

Posts: 8737
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

Ricardo,

You aught to read the books. If you read the hobbit I wonder whether you’d see the Hobbit movies as condensable, if anything there are parts I’d expand and reduce the amount of time they spend with that idiot goblin king.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2022 7:44:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

Season finale was very good I thought, they played on expectations in an interesting way and I found it convincing. I had to double check the opening montage of Lord of the Rings first film for details and continuity and it seems they did a good job IMO. At least so far. The only thing, which I guess will get explained later… Sauron seemed to be a physical giant. Any explanations there? I mean this is a prequel so spoilers are already inherent. Like we know isildur’s dad becomes king, and he is not dead yet etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2022 15:56:38
 
estebanana

Posts: 8737
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to Ricardo

Sauron is a being called a Maiar- Gandalf is also a Maiar -

These are beings like Bodhisattvas or angels. They aren’t gods or creators, but beings that look after the world. The deal with Sauron is that he went bad, bad like mega Darth Vader bad. Mairar can make themselves bigger when they need to. The other example of this is when Gandalf makes himself bigger to Frodo in the Fellowship of the Ring.

I’m not sure the Stranger is Gandalf as a young wizard. It’s established that the stranger is … well spoiler if I say what I think before Jason binges.

The only timeline problem that’s weird is that these events span like half an age of middle earth and the Elves are really old, while the men come and go birth to death in the Tolkien books, they compressed time in the ROP. In the ROP Galadriel is like 4000 years old, later in the. Third Age of middle earth when she’s the Lady of Lothlorien she’s about 8000 years old.

Imagine that when you look at Cate Blanchett next time.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2022 11:57:35
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Imagine that when you look at Cate Blanchett next time.


I watched some nerd summaries and got a lot of what you wrote figured out. Yes the stranger istar (we find out finally is actually Gandalf with the moth thing) is breaking the supposed timeline, although the true spirit (Orlin or something?) can come and go as it pleases it seems and the ‘Gandalf” version arrives with the other wizards thousands of years later. Although in the way it is is presented, he should “know” that he is a Maiar but perhaps some sort of amnesia is the reason, due to the way he arrives? Artistic liberty but i think it works and it is probably the coolest part of the new story, so I have no problem with it.

I also learned that cate blanchett is the one with one of the elf rings and when Sauron lost his finger and ring, the 3 elves were able to use their rings for the original intended purposes. So she is 8k years old but using the ring, apparently, to keep herself and lothorian people all youthful. (Are not the elves immortal anyway? But I guess they age as well? Her age is locked in when she finally uses the ring). Also the humans that used to live like in Numenor etc, used to live much much longer for some reason, and even Aragorn lives to like 120 years or reigns that long, or something. Anyway, the other guy with a ring is Elrond, and he used his to keep Rivendale young and un aging as well, and last is Gandalf who has it but never tells anybody and never uses it for a damn thing. . And all three rings lose their power after Gollum falls into the lava.

Oh last I forgot about the Sauron twist. Again they took artistic liberty for his disguise but it works much better than yet another magical being in disguise that some elves reject and others are dooped. In that sense, i think their unique idea works BETTER than the original. That can be debated of course.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2022 15:01:58
 
estebanana

Posts: 8737
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

The nerds may or may not be correct on the Ishtar being Gandalf. There are five wizards in total and two of them are sent to middle earth during this time in the second age. I wouldn’t put a pin in it that it’s the Big G just yet.

All the stuff about the three rings for the elf lords etc is, well anyone who read the books already has all that info. You kind of learned it by nerd Cliff Notes, it’s more in-depth in the story.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2022 0:31:56
 
JasonM

Posts: 1924
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Although Bombadil was a massive oversight and an important part of the story line.


See I remember it being a Thing, but also more of a side quest from the main story line. Of course the story is about the journey as much as the destination to the ring smelter.

The Bombadil - movie topic has caused many fights and some have died over this old argument.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2022 1:24:34
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

The nerds may or may not be correct on the Ishtar being Gandalf. There are five wizards in total and two of them are sent to middle earth during this time in the second age. I wouldn’t put a pin in it that it’s the Big G just yet.


Hmm, maybe you didn’t see the last episode yet? (Some other people in my group also thought the volcano was the last episode of the season, it is not, there is one more). They make it very obvious who the ishtar is with the moth. Even if it were another, they don’t appear as wizards until thousands of years later or something. Plus he has the affinity for the little people of the world, and he was the unique character to feel that way in the story. These hard foot folk are obvious precursors to the hobbits. I assume they are also a new invention outside of the Tolkien books?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2022 11:49:39
 
estebanana

Posts: 8737
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RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

Still, there are five Ishtar. The two that show up in the second age are called the ‘Blue Wizards, there is not much known about them, and who is to say that wizards in general don’t have an affinity with winged insects? Radagast the other good wizard has the gift of relating to animals also.

It’s only Saruman that goes against the embrace of the natural world when he kills the ancient trees in Fangorn Forest. All other wizards commune with nature. And Bombadil the one oldest creature, he communicates with nature.

Do not pigeon hole wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger.

The hardfoots are the ancestors of Gollum, but also the good bucolic Shire Hobbits. The proto hobbits in the second age had not settled in The Shire yet, they are canastero hobbits. The shire hobbits are Caseros.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2022 15:28:48
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1781
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

These hard foot folk are obvious precursors to the hobbits. I assume they are also a new invention outside of the Tolkien books?


No:

quote:

Before the crossing of the [Misty] mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides. The Harfoots were browner of skin [hence the opportunity for diversity in casting], smaller, and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless [etc.]


This is from the Prologue to the 2nd edition.

There’s an article dedicated to the Istari in Unfinished Tales.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2022 19:05:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 8737
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

This moth was drawn to land near me. In whispers I told her to summon the eagles to the kremlin and claw out Sauron’s eyes and liver.

(6” wingspan)



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2022 6:11:37
 
RobF

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RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

Is it necessary to watch The Hobbit in order to appreciate the Rings of Power? I sat through the first hobbit movie last night in preparation but I honestly don’t know if I could subject myself to six more hours. Probably faster if I read The Hobbit instead. But is it even necessary for the storyline? If not I’ll skip The Hobbit and move right into the series.

P.S. I have seen The Lord of the Ring movies, and I think I read about halfway through the books when I was younger, but it was so long ago I don’t have any recollection of many details. In that respect, it probably doesn’t matter that much what I do.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2022 0:36:37
 
Estevan

Posts: 1902
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

This moth was drawn to land near me. In whispers I told her to summon the eagles to the kremlin and claw out Sauron’s eyes and liver.

Well done!

нехай так і буде!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2022 2:58:56
 
estebanana

Posts: 8737
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RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to Estevan

quote:

нехай так і буде!


це буде, він не буде жити вічно

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2022 10:18:13
 
estebanana

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RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to RobF

It’s not necessary to read the Hobbit to get into the ROP.
The reason to read it is because it’s an utterly charming and engaging tale, with unforgettable characters and realized masterfully. It’s the Flamencos of Cadiz Bay of its genre.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2022 10:21:34
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

Is it necessary to watch The Hobbit in order to appreciate the Rings of Power? I sat through the first hobbit movie last night in preparation but I honestly don’t know if I could subject myself to six more hours. Probably faster if I read The Hobbit instead. But is it even necessary for the storyline? If not I’ll skip The Hobbit and move right into the series.

P.S. I have seen The Lord of the Ring movies, and I think I read about halfway through the books when I was younger, but it was so long ago I don’t have any recollection of many details. In that respect, it probably doesn’t matter that much what I do.


I was familiar with the Hobbit cartoon film from when i was a kid. That is much shorter and gets the story told. Knowing that the Sauron Eye was invented for the film version of LOTR, I often wondered if it was a throw back to the cartoon hobbit as the dragon’s eyes sort of worked like that. I thought it was really cool even though many nerd readers didn’t like it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2022 15:53:11
 
RobF

Posts: 1366
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

It’s not necessary to read the Hobbit to get into the ROP.


Great! Thanks guys.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2022 22:03:02
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1781
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Knowing that the Sauron Eye was invented for the film version of LOTR …


No, but it’s scope was enlarged, as of course was that of many other things. For instance, from Chapter 7 of Fellowship:

quote:

Down a long flight of steps the Lady went into a deep green hollow, through which ran murmuring the silver stream that issued from the fountain on the hill. At the bottom, upon a low pedestal carved like a branching tree, stood a basin of silver, and beside it stood a silver ewer.

With water from the stream Galadriel filled the basin to the brim, and breathed on it, and when the water was still again she spoke. ‘Here is the Mirror of Galadriel,’ she said. ‘I have brought you here so that you may look in it, if you will.’

[…]

But suddenly the Mirror went altogether dark, as dark as if a hole had opened in the world of sight, and Frodo looked into emptiness. In the black Abyss there appeared a single Eye that slowly grew, until it filled nearly all the Mirror. So terrible was it that Frodo stood rooted, unable to cry out or to withdraw his gaze. The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat’s, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil open on a pit, a window into nothing.

Then the Eye began to rove, searching this way and that; and Frodo knew with certainty and horror that among the many things that it sought he himself was one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2022 3:30:29
 
Arash

Posts: 4493
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana



My question then is, without revealing spoilers:
Rings of Power, interesting non Tolkien sequenced extension of his tale telling, or crappy abomination?


I didn't watch it with too many expectations, so it was fine.
Sometimes too corny for my taste, and the first few episodes were kinda meh.... but overall good and enjoyed it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2022 17:17:32
 
JasonM

Posts: 1924
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

Just finished the season and loved it! Not at first, but it won me over.

Like banana pointed out, the time line from the books is off, and even knowing it was a spin-off going in, you assume the old guy is Gandalf. But in the books the Istar don’t come until the one ring is lost if I remember right - and The Whole ring forging is different as well. They didn’t know Sauron was behind the rings until they try them on and the whole plan backfires. Anyhow, they really make Galadriel this whole Joan of Arc chic, it’s all kind of weird, good and confusing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2022 3:25:34
 
estebanana

Posts: 8737
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Rings of Power true Tolkien spir... (in reply to estebanana

Today I was thinking that the Amazon production of R of P is just a grand scale ‘fan fiction’ product. Albeit with a Bezosian budget.
Okay fine. Who’s to say Peter (H)Jackson’s films aren’t also fan fiction? They kind of are.

In that light I think some of you might also enjoy these LOTR’s short feature fan films- vast vistas made possible by drone cameras 🎥
I’ve been tracking LOTR fan fiction films for years and I rather enjoyed these two and another I’ll search out..

Horn of Gondor

https://youtu.be/wVFtSUQm-jQ


The Search for Gollum

https://youtu.be/uZWuxEwqYzM

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2022 4:36:17
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