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trivium91

 

Posts: 149
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
 

Left Hand Position and Rotation 

Hey Guys,

It’s no surprise that the pinky struggles to reach some positions, the only way to make a clean effortless sound is to rotate the arm/wrist so the knuckles are parallel to the fret board. I’ve heard that we should always keep the wrist and hand in this ready (parallel) position, however i find that it’s much more fatiguing and not required for every Falsetta. Typically falsettas that have many Lagatos and barred frets, especially with the pinky require the knuckles to be parallel with the fingerboard. Is it really realistic to hold your hand/knuckles parallel to the fretboard 100% of the time? I’ve paid particular attention to this and I’ve notice many of the great players today only rotate to where they are parallel when they need it which is maybe a little more than 60% of the time, and other times they are very angled, perhaps to give their hand/arm/wrist a brief break. Thoughts?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2022 21:46:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to trivium91

Ugh! Just realized two of my favorite videos have been copyright struck by Juan Lebron (producer of Sevillanas by Saura). Sanlucar’s left hand is a good model. Darn, that video has been unavailable on DVD for years, that really irks me. So watch this anyway, you have to stay on top, or be prepared to a lot, so get used to it:



Even with more comfortable por medio stuff:



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2022 11:55:36
 
trivium91

 

Posts: 149
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks this is awesome. Yes It definitely seems like he is always ready compared to some other players, though he does pull his hand over a bit when he needs his pinky on the 5th and 6th strings. I noticed his posture is similar to what I try to obtain, especially his elbow tucked close to his side. I see some players and they are able to move their elbow way out. I need to keep my elbow tucked fairly close to my side which makes it easier to get the knuckles in line with the frets.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2022 16:30:30
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to trivium91

quote:

I’ve paid particular attention to this and I’ve notice many of the great players today only rotate to where they are parallel when they need it which is maybe a little more than 60% of the time, and other times they are very angled, perhaps to give their hand/arm/wrist a brief break. Thoughts?


I've thought about this too. As Ricardo shows, having more or less parallel approach is a good default position. I don't think of it as THE position for the left hand that you have to keep to regardless of what is being played; as with anything guitar-related, better not to think in terms of absolutes.

Are there patterns when an angled position serves the left-hand better?

For example, you can see Paco de Lucia doing descending picado runs with an angled left hand - I think because when you go back and forth on a string (e.g. frets 1-3-5-3-1-0 on high-e, then 3-1-0-1-3-1-0 on b, and so on), as it happens a lot in these fast runs, there is more ease and precision in performing these back-and-forth patterns from an angled position and sort of help with a small swing back and forth as if around the left-hand index finger. Watch Paco's knuckle line on the picado run 1:48-1:51 in this video of Recuerdo a Patino alegrias:




Maybe someone can do this with a parallel knuckle line as fast and as precisely, but for me the angled approach for this definitely works better. Doing fast back and forth with the parallel approach seem harder to do precisely timed - I feel like there is no mental "anchor" for me to do the left-hand sequencing just with the small finger movements without the smooth arm/wrist swing/pivot.

So that is why I concluded, tentatively, that there is a reason Paco is going angled for these left-hand patterns - and that the reason is as described above.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2022 19:03:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to kitarist

Well, open strings people tend to revert to easy kid positions because it is like you have an extra finger….transpose a similar long run to A major and see how the “ease” is still present…but he is ON TOP. At 12 seconds:



But to me more objective, I was always struck by this long run and the way he plays even OPEN position, with 2 and 4, AS if he had a barre going on and is therefore “on top” as if this run was transposed. In fact seeing this exact passage early on is when I started changing my left hand approach (coming from rock guitar, where I would play that run with mostly 1 and 3 relaxed wrist) At 3:18.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2022 19:24:47
 
trivium91

 

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RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to kitarist

While im not experienced compared to most members on this forum, I did find that I had to keep an angled hand when doing picado runs. The reason being is because my thumb now supports the guitar when I lift my right bicep up, unfortunatly to keep the thumb like this I need to keep my hand angle away a bit. Is it possible Paco did this aswell?

You do bring up a valid point though which from what I can summarize is that the twisting of the forearm in order to line the knuckles parallel puts excessive strain that can slow down the left hand speed during picado.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2022 20:11:52
 
trivium91

 

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RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to Ricardo

Just watched this, yes at 3:18 it looks like Paco is adjusting on the fly. He starts the picado angled and finishes on top with his knuckles more angled, I guess to make it easier for the pinky. Perhaps Kitarist is on to something with his theory of twisting the wrist/forearm slowing down the picado?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2022 20:17:02
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to trivium91

quote:

You do bring up a valid point though which from what I can summarize is that the twisting of the forearm in order to line the knuckles parallel puts excessive strain that can slow down the left hand speed during picado.


I don't actually feel strain when in parallel, so for me it is more mental - my brain doesn't have a conceptual anchor to hold on to when the knuckles are parallel and trying to do back and forth - there is too much symmetry in the position to "chunk" the required movements, so to speak. Angled introduces just the right asymmetry for my brain to be able to do precise timing for back and forth commands aided by a little swing/pivot back and forth from the arm.

Anyway, maybe this is wrong though, and it has more to do with being in first position rather than anything more general.

But there is more detail to it. Like in the Guajiras run at 0:12, it starts a bit angled and gets more parallel as the bass strings are reached. I've noticed this in other videos too - even though it is a barre, the setup adjusts depending on which string the picado is on. I've tried that too and it does make a difference compared to doing the same run with classical-style immovable barre and being completely parallel from the get-go. Though I recognise that, at least in part, this is a way to deal with how independent the left-hand fingers can move from one another in this position balanced with the need for speed and precision.

The other thing is the wrist twist back and forth to aid (not impede) the fast back-and-forth pattern in picado runs. I just remembered it is also pronounced when it is a slur back and forth - like in the famous minor section in a couple of Paco's bulerias, I think first in El Tempul.

See the section 2:48-2:55 or so. Slow it down to 1/4 of the speed. First of all almost the entire section is done with angled knuckles. Also notice the wrist twist toward less-angled-and-back-to-more-angled which aids the fast 3-5-3 slur with the 4th finger (3rd to 4th and back) - the string-stopping is NOT done with just motion from the fingers - the wrist aids. Also, the angled position is kept (never getting to parallel; just more or less angle), and the increased distance for the 3rd and 4th finger is compensated by the 3rd and 4th finger reaching their frets by unfolding more - being less curled - than index and 2nd.



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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2022 20:55:48
 
trivium91

 

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RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to kitarist

Yes this makes sense, the strain I feel is likely because im too tense everywhere as a result of heavy weight training for years, I've been harshly massaging my forearms which seem to help. Twisting does not hurt, it just takes more effort is all and you can visible see the forearm muscle engaging a bit.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2022 21:28:21
 
Mitch

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Joined: Nov. 24 2005
From: AZ

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to trivium91

What an absolute force of nature he was.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2022 1:42:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to kitarist

The original here is about fatigue and a desire to get away with not doing the thing required. The main point is there will be long passages so getting used to the idea in first place is the point. Of course there are no laws about this, if you want to get to a place where you don’t fatigue you need to get used it it plain and simple because you will need it and it should not be about how long you have to be in the “uncomfortable” position. It should be viewed as “when you need it, you maintain it indefinitely”.

So pointing out spots where it is not needed is totally not helpful IMO. I showed that open positon picado because it was a thing that changed my mentality, as in “OH! I need to be ready for this ALWAYS! Not just some trick passages”. Later I encountered the half-barre where you really need to be WAY on top and that simple change in mentality changed the way I viewed passages in general. I showed Sanlucar cuz he was the guy where even when you DON’T need the thing he made it clear, almost in an exaggerated way, to get ready and used to this thing so when playing guitar you NEVER should feel fatigue. That piece Sanlucar plays is Granaina in a weird key (C# normal B phrygian). The irony there is the relative major key A, is normally the easiest thing because the open chords are all there E A D, but he is doing everything with Barre shapes, and on a high action guitar the stuff he is doing would be just a nightmare. But he is so relaxed like no problem.

The passage at 4:11 is the type of thing where you have to get used to this and never feel fatigue.



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2022 11:59:52
 
trivium91

 

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RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to Ricardo

Yes this makes sense, already I have improved with this new awareness of hand position this week. The on top position feels more natural every day, dually so with shoulder stretches and what not. Thanks for the help and clarification on this. I learn quickly so the hand position will become second nature to where I don’t even have to think about it.

Yes I’m working with hinge bars where you bend your finger joint backwards, I believe they are the same as the half bars that you mentioned as they are exactly what is at 4:11 in the video you posted. They definitely do require to be on top in order to get a clean sound and apply the minimum amount of force to free up the other fingers and minimize hand tension. Im getting proficient at them as I discovered within this thread and via the mirror I was using extra tension to compensate for poor positioning in order to get a clean sound. Im really focusing on applying the minimum amount of pressure to make a clean sound by means of ideal hand positioning. In the end it's far less fatigue to maintain the hand position than it is with all the extra unnecessary tension.

Respect to Paco, I’m still mesmerized by his technical ability.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2022 16:25:57
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The original here is about fatigue and a desire to get away with not doing the thing required. The main point is there will be long passages so getting used to the idea in first place is the point. Of course there are no laws about this, if you want to get to a place where you don’t fatigue you need to get used it it plain and simple because you will need it and it should not be about how long you have to be in the “uncomfortable” position. It should be viewed as “when you need it, you maintain it indefinitely”.

So pointing out spots where it is not needed is totally not helpful IMO


OK, thanks for explaining this. I approach it from a different point so will leave my posts up for now, but let me know if I should just remove it as to not confuse others.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2022 17:28:51
 
Brendan

Posts: 280
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RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to Ricardo

The OP should definitely follow Ricardo’s advice. Hanging on to a full or partial barre and fretting notes with the little finger four or five frets higher is the characteristic flamenco left-hand thing and so the default hand position should be parallel, even in first position. What I’m about to say isn’t meant to fight with that at all. It’s more like an argument for why, on very rare occasions, you might give your left wrist a twist.

I’ve been trying to understand how Django played. He would do rapid runs up and down one string. I was struggling to coordinate my hands, and I realised it was because in parallel position, lateral movement is only available from your shoulder and elbow, and they just are not quick or precise enough. If you twist your wrist, you can use your wrist and the natural cantilever of your first two (or three) fingers to achieve speed and precision. I had a look at the one bit of film of him playing and sure enough, his wrist was turned right round.

So, the rule is: strictly parallel at all times except if you have a single-note passage that sprints along one of the top strings.


Also, the OP might want to experiment with tilting the guitar away slightly.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2022 11:18:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to Brendan

Django used two fingers. I tried that as a teen and some arpegios and Diminished runs benefitted as was well as the swing aspect (three fingers literally don’t make the swing as nice).

Titling the guitar forward might have an effect on your right shoulder, depending on your size.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2022 15:40:58
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to trivium91

quote:

the strain I feel is likely because im too tense everywhere as a result of heavy weight training for years,


I wanted to comment on this as I've previously come across people on other forums (or in real life) mentioning weight training as impeding their guitar playing.

I have been doing weight training for many years - bench presses, squats, deadlifts, etc. with significant weight. My own experience has been that it does not affect my guitar playing, apart from maybe the hour or so after heavy deadlifts when my arm muscles are just recovering. I've been thinking that unwelcome (feeling of) tension when playing guitar primarily comes from elsewhere - from unconsciously tensing muscles that are not needed for the particular movements and forces we apply when playing.

Ideally the brain should activate only what is needed (and relax these muscles immediately after the "stroke" or other action). You see this happening in highly skilled professional players(*) in two ways:

1. Neighbouring fingers stay relaxed (so finger independence as much as human physiology allows);

2. The working finger is completely relaxed before and after its action (so the muscles force is impulse-like - a precisely-timed peak with sharp declines on both sides.

In amateur players the opposite was seen.

Also, in guitar playing, there is a potential for a lot of more-distant unproductive(#) tension (not just of neighbouring fingers) due to the setup needed to hold and play the guitar - could be shoulders, back, torso, lower body. Not just tensing unneeded muscles, but keeping them tensed for many minutes or hours.


(*) Not aware of studies done on guitar players for this, but there are some done on professional (vs. amateur) piano players, which is where I draw the description of the features seen in pro players from.

(#) "Unproductive" tension here means tensing muscles that are not needed for the particular movements and forces we apply when playing. The term "parasitic tension" has also been used, likely borrowed from Feldenkrais method or Alexander technique, to indicate the same concept.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2022 21:33:59
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1490
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to kitarist

quote:


I have been doing weight training for many years - bench presses, squats, deadlifts, etc. with significant weight. My own experience has been that it does not affect my guitar playing, apart from maybe the hour or so after heavy deadlifts when my arm muscles are just recovering. I've been thinking that unwelcome (feeling of) tension when playing guitar primarily comes from elsewhere - from unconsciously tensing muscles that are not needed for the particular movements and forces we apply when playing.


There’s an online electric guitar teacher who recommends strength training for guitarists - especially those who have plateaued. A friend of mine, who could bench press 475lbs in the early 1990s, didn’t have any issues with dexterity and could play Van Halen solos, etc. IMO it’s a myth that weight lifting interferes with guitar technique. Holding a steering wheel tightly for a few hours, or letting your hands get cold, are bigger issues for musicians than any problem created by weight lifting.

I have a book that was published about 70 years ago that mentions uncontrolled tension as a major obstacle in developing technique. The notion of tension creating problems is not a new one. I’ve seen some people’s foreheads tense up when they play. This is typical of beginners who are trying to synchronize their left and right hands. Longtime players whose foreheads tense up when playing tend to be poor technicians. Regarding relaxation, IIRC Grisha mentioned in a post that after practicing for years as a child one day he felt a sense of relaxation come over him as he was playing and at that point he was able to execute techniques on a high level.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2022 23:28:22
 
trivium91

 

Posts: 149
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

the strain I feel is likely because im too tense everywhere as a result of heavy weight training for years,


I wanted to comment on this as I've previously come across people on other forums (or in real life) mentioning weight training as impeding their guitar playing.

I have been doing weight training for many years - bench presses, squats, deadlifts, etc. with significant weight. My own experience has been that it does not affect my guitar playing, apart from maybe the hour or so after heavy deadlifts when my arm muscles are just recovering. I've been thinking that unwelcome (feeling of) tension when playing guitar primarily comes from elsewhere - from unconsciously tensing muscles that are not needed for the particular movements and forces we apply when playing.

Ideally the brain should activate only what is needed (and relax these muscles immediately after the "stroke" or other action). You see this happening in highly skilled professional players(*) in two ways:

1. Neighbouring fingers stay relaxed (so finger independence as much as human physiology allows);

2. The working finger is completely relaxed before and after its action (so the muscles force is impulse-like - a precisely-timed peak with sharp declines on both sides.

In amateur players the opposite was seen.

Also, in guitar playing, there is a potential for a lot of more-distant unproductive(#) tension (not just of neighbouring fingers) due to the setup needed to hold and play the guitar - could be shoulders, back, torso, lower body. Not just tensing unneeded muscles, but keeping them tensed for many minutes or hours.


(*) Not aware of studies done on guitar players for this, but there are some done on professional (vs. amateur) piano players, which is where I draw the description of the features seen in pro players from.

(#) "Unproductive" tension here means tensing muscles that are not needed for the particular movements and forces we apply when playing. The term "parasitic tension" has also been used, likely borrowed from Feldenkrais method or Alexander technique, to indicate the same concept.


This is good advice, thanks. I guess I can't use it as an excuse anymore, lol. Though thats likely a good thing, the power of the mind and awareness and all that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 15:42:27
 
trivium91

 

Posts: 149
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to Pgh_flamenco

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco

quote:


I have been doing weight training for many years - bench presses, squats, deadlifts, etc. with significant weight. My own experience has been that it does not affect my guitar playing, apart from maybe the hour or so after heavy deadlifts when my arm muscles are just recovering. I've been thinking that unwelcome (feeling of) tension when playing guitar primarily comes from elsewhere - from unconsciously tensing muscles that are not needed for the particular movements and forces we apply when playing.


There’s an online electric guitar teacher who recommends strength training for guitarists - especially those who have plateaued. A friend of mine, who could bench press 475lbs in the early 1990s, didn’t have any issues with dexterity and could play Van Halen solos, etc. IMO it’s a myth that weight lifting interferes with guitar technique. Holding a steering wheel tightly for a few hours, or letting your hands get cold, are bigger issues for musicians than any problem created by weight lifting.

I have a book that was published about 70 years ago that mentions uncontrolled tension as a major obstacle in developing technique. The notion of tension creating problems is not a new one. I’ve seen some people’s foreheads tense up when they play. This is typical of beginners who are trying to synchronize their left and right hands. Longtime players whose foreheads tense up when playing tend to be poor technicians. Regarding relaxation, IIRC Grisha mentioned in a post that after practicing for years as a child one day he felt a sense of relaxation come over him as he was playing and at that point he was able to execute techniques on a high level.


Interesting, I guess I can relate a little to Grisha on a much smaller scale. When I was learning the different techniques, all that tension while learning and finally something clicks a few days later and now i just get it, though without a proper explanation of how I got there. Take tremolo for example, I dont even really have to think about the right hand at all, it just knows what to do.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 15:46:15
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to trivium91

quote:

I guess I can't use it as an excuse anymore, lol. Though thats likely a good thing,


Yes, but I think it also means you have to search and diagnose what causes you to feel tense while playing - the unproductive tension - and work to eliminate it. Meaning, don't practice expecting that tension feeling to be just a normal background to playing guita, as in time it might develop into an issue or at least impede your progress long term.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 20:04:51
 
trivium91

 

Posts: 149
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

I guess I can't use it as an excuse anymore, lol. Though thats likely a good thing,


Yes, but I think it also means you have to search and diagnose what causes you to feel tense while playing - the unproductive tension - and work to eliminate it. Meaning, don't practice expecting that tension feeling to be just a normal background to playing guita, as in time it might develop into an issue or at least impede your progress long term.


Well the first step was identifying the issue, since the thread is from September I've made huge progress in this area. My falsettas have substantially improved. It an effort to help others aswell, If anyone is wondering what the source was, it was simply because its a bit hard moving the right hand fast and keeping the left hand loose. Simple awareness, recordings and a mirror have helped me and I believe will continue to help over time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2022 0:00:19
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to trivium91

quote:

it was simply because its a bit hard moving the right hand fast and keeping the left hand loose.


Great, thanks for the update.

EDIT: Mirroring (left/right) response to one-sided intent I think is a "default" reaction by the nervous system unless trained otherwise; as guitarists, we have to teach the brain to dissociate from mirroring left/right.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2022 3:28:12
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Left Hand Position and Rotation (in reply to kitarist

quote:

I don't actually feel strain when in parallel, so for me it is more mental - my brain doesn't have a conceptual anchor to hold on to when the knuckles are parallel and trying to do back and forth - there is too much symmetry in the position to "chunk" the required movements, so to speak.


To update on this, interesting that after this discussion a month ago it is getting easier to do fast+precise in the on-top position, not angled. Basing this on borrowing the intro run in the live version of Frevo Rasgado from FNISF - the sequence of 6 sextuplets, one per string - for practice..

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2022 19:10:55
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