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Abanico PMP   You are logged in as Guest
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orsonw

Posts: 1630
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

Abanico PMP 

P M(A) P abanico question.

For fast speeds e.g. for 6 notes/beat for alegrias 165+bpm. I notice those that do it well have their index finger flexed the whole time and nearly all also have the little finger extended.

I do it with my index straight but only get to 150bpm. I have been experimenting with flexing my index and there is some more speed. Seems the hand is compact more balanced. I may have to relearn this way? Grateful for other thoughts/experience?


Photos below are:
Antonio Rey
Roman Vicente
Ricardo, Tomatito, Luciano Ghosn



First ten seconds of this video gives a good view of Antonio Rey.


Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2022 20:12:36
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw

quote:

P M(A) P abanico question.

For fast speeds e.g. for 6 notes/beat for alegrias 165+bpm. [..]

I do it with my index straight but only get to 150bpm.


A bit confused here - so if 6 notes per 'beat', do you mean that you currently do 2 abanicos per click (2 x pmp) at 150 clicks/minute with straight index finger? Or just one abanico per click?

As to the actual question - I wonder if it has something to do with instinctively adjusting to minimize rotational inertia (moment of inertia) around the long axis through the forearm. Presumably minimizing it will make it easier to reverse directions, thus making abanico faster?

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2022 20:56:42
 
orsonw

Posts: 1630
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to kitarist

quote:

6 notes per 'beat', do you mean that you currently do 2 abanicos per click (2 x pmp) at 150 clicks/minute


Yes, 2 x pmp per beat at 150bpm is my maximum speed.

I just has a re-analysis. I am using MA together. I am striking with A more than M. Focusing on M tends to flex the I. This seems to make it easier to go faster, but I'm going to have to work on it because now the strokes are not even in volume or time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2022 21:33:09
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw

quote:

Yes, 2 x pmp per beat at 150bpm is my maximum speed.


Damn, that's fast already!

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2022 22:33:02
 
orsonw

Posts: 1630
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Damn, that's fast already!


Not fast enough! For baile alegrias at 165+bpm. Also for solea, even though dancers like a slow 70-80bpm, being able to 4 x pmp per beat at 80bpm is useful.

Also sometimes useful to have a fast smooth abanico for closing tarantas, maleguenas for cante.

I prefer PAI at slower speeds but sometimes PMP just has the right feeling. A 2x PMP per beat at 160+bpm seems possible with work. (Compared to a useable and reliable 16th note picado at 160bpm, which still seems like a dream for me and maybe one I will never reach!)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2022 22:41:59
 
orsonw

Posts: 1630
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw

Here's Chicuelo. He also has his index flexed, perhaps not a tightly as Antonio rey.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2022 8:59:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13523
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw

Here I am doing at 160 bpm at 1:10. You can slow it down and watch. The index just pulls in case you want to use it, it doesn’t affect the speed.



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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2022 11:46:30
 
orsonw

Posts: 1630
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Here I am doing at 160 bpm at 1:10. You can slow it down and watch. The index just pulls in case you want to use it, it doesn’t affect the speed.


Thanks, your video here is a bit blurry slowed down.



This video of you is clear. I got the shot of you with flexed index/extended little finger in my OP (bottom left) from this video at 2.00.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2022 14:16:49
 
orsonw

Posts: 1630
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw

Jose Tanaka's video is clearer. He also has his index flexed and little finger extended the whole time. It seems the flexed index finger is common amongst players with good PMP abanico, I haven't yet found someone not doing it?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2022 14:22:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13523
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw

The main thing is to get the wrist relaxed and moving up and down (as 16th notes) at the tempo you need, such that you can keep it going indefinitely with UP STROKE on the beat. When you do that you need to keep the hand closed pretty much. As you open the hand the thumb sticks out and the pinky too, and the inner fingers (m or ma or a, whatever you like) starts to synchronize with the thumb to create the triplet but the wrist speed stays the same. A good exercise is to move between straight 16ths and the triplets without stopping.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2022 12:20:37
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3402
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw

quote:

I notice those that do it well have their index finger flexed the whole time and nearly all also have the little finger extended.


that's odd, i never even noticed before, but I let my index just sort of hang and flap around in a "relaxed" sort of way, but I have been experimenting with keeping it flexed the last few days and it feels really different, and I admit I am a bit surprised that the rotation action feels more free, fluid and yes, I think it's a bit faster, so thanks for that!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2022 15:02:28
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