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devilhand

 

Posts: 1189
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

For arpegio freaks 

After I get bored with standard pami pima pimami and pamima, I decided to integrate all possible combinations of 3, 4, 5 and 6 note arpegio into my practice routine. As you can see pulgar is missing everywhere because I didn't want to type so many P's. The finger combinations are created by online permutations generator.

I'm gonna master some of them meaning that one day I'll be able to play them super fast. Some are intended for practice purposes only. What do you guys think? Am I exaggerating?

3 and 4 note arpegio




5 note arpegio




6 note arpegio



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (3)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 24 2022 20:57:24
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1699
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to devilhand

I use in a Solea (P)mipimamiami so I think you need another sheed….😃

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2022 9:30:09
 
silddx

Posts: 131
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to devilhand

I'd be interested to see a video of how you incorporate all these into your practice regime.

I'm also interested in why the usual arpegio patterns that are used in flamenco guitar are boring to you. I guess that is stimulated by what you said to Ricardo about your doubts about your ability to master old school rasgeo techniques.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2022 14:06:18
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1189
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

I use in a Solea (P)mipimamiami so I think you need another sheed….😃

Your pattern is P-mi-Pimami-ami.
2 standard arp patterns imami and ami except for mi. Already on the list above.
More interesting and a bit non standard one would be Pimi-a-Pimi-ami. G. Nunez shows it in his encuentro video.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2022 18:06:27
 
devilhand

 

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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to silddx

quote:

I'd be interested to see a video of how you incorporate all these into your practice regime.

For example you can play them with shifting 8th and 16th note accents. Another example is to combine pattern A with B etc. like Gerundino's Solea example above. Or your thumb rests on one of the bass strings and you play only finger combinations for example miami miami.... etc.
I usually practice arpegio mostly on open strings.

quote:

I'm also interested in why the usual arpegio patterns that are used in flamenco guitar are boring to you. I guess that is stimulated by what you said to Ricardo about your doubts about your ability to master old school rasgeo techniques.

I can play standard arps quite fast. I just wanted to challenge my fingers more in future.

As for old school ras technique, I have no doubt. With a correct approach everyone can master old school rasgueo. eamii sounds fine to me. Motivated by Grisha's short ras video, I'll give it a go. After a few weeks I can tell if it was worth trying.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2022 18:21:21
 
Stu

Posts: 2076
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to devilhand

I like arpeggios. So I'll join in.

Argh! My eyes!! 😆

I remember a time when I got a bit freaky about the letters ami like this. Go for it.

So a sequence generator spat out all these combinations of the letters ami??

Tell me. What does the bold denote? Oh I see.it's the original letters in their straight sequence
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2022 21:06:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to devilhand

quote:

More interesting and a bit non standard one would be Pimi-a-Pimi-ami. G. Nunez shows it in his encuentro video.


Paco got that from Mlaughlin, Meeting of the Spirits. He uses it for Zyryab, cancion de amor, etc, and since then many players use it for 3/4 stuff, like Vicente Amigo for example. Gerardo was actually using cancion de amor to demonstrate.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2022 15:16:53
 
devilhand

 

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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Paco got that from Mlaughlin, Meeting of the Spirits. He uses it for Zyryab, cancion de amor, etc, and since then many players use it for 3/4 stuff, like Vicente Amigo for example. Gerardo was actually using cancion de amor to demonstrate.

Very informative as always. I haven't paid much attention to where this arpegio pattern is used. I thought it was a part of his own composition.

quote:

Tell me. What does the bold denote? Oh I see.it's the original letters in their straight sequence

Yes, it helps a lot. Without it 5 and 6 note arpegio would look a bit messy.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2022 22:25:30
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3402
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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to devilhand

quote:

After I get bored with standard pami pima pimami and pamima


when do you use pamima? I don't think I have never come across it in a falseta.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2022 20:36:31
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1189
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

when do you use pamima? I don't think I have never come across it in a falseta.

Pamima seems to be of limited use, but it's fun to play. I call it a standard pattern because pamima is pimami in reverse order. If you can play mima, pamima is not difficult to master.
Why not give it a try?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2022 18:43:05
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to devilhand

quote:


when do you use pamima? I don't think I have never come across it in a falseta.


quote:

Pamima seems to be of limited use, but it's fun to play. I call it a standard pattern because pamima is pimami in reverse order. If you can play mima, pamima is not difficult to master.
Why not give it a try?


I think you misunderstand my question or, rather you add some assumptions of your own to my question. I never said I that I hadn't tried it, or practised it (at various times over the years*).

My question was when do "you" use it, and my observation was that I don't think I have ever come across it in a falseta. I was also slightly hoping you or someone else might post up a falseta with it in.



*I wonder if you have ever come across the saying "teaching your grandmother to suck eggs"?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 14:12:06
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to mark indigo

This variant is a Niño Ricardo standard with P in the middle (Pamipima). 1:39 for example:



I first learned it from Nuñez at 1:59



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 15:19:32
 
kitarist

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Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to mark indigo

Guajiras de Lucia has a bunch of (ap)mipima patterns and amipima as well (I am not saying they are the same pattern as pamima, just that they are similar). Here in an image excerpt from Ramzi's thread page 3 ( http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=194802&mpage=3 ):



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 17:27:26
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

This variant is a Niño Ricardo standard with P in the middle (Pamipima). 1:39 for example:


video is unavailable

the Gerardo video I can see

is Pamipima the same as pamima though? Or is it Pami and Pima i.e. two basic arpegios joined together?

I'm thinking of this in terms of how easy they are. I can do pami 16ths (4 notes per beat) at 160 bpm, and pima about 170 (continuously). I tried to do pami pima continuously and i can do it about 130-140 bpm but I have never practised that specifically before. pimami I can do 16th sextuplets (6 notes per beat) continuous at 120 bpm, but pamima (again, 16th sextuplets - 6 notes per beat) I can only get to about 80 bpm!

i was interested to comment on this because it was mentioned somewhere 3 or 4 months ago and I started practising it a little bit regularly (I was aware of it as the inverse of pimami before, but as i never encountered it in anything i never bothered to practise it). What I found interesting about it, and why I have continued to practise it is I noticed the close repetition of the a finger works that finger a bit when the arpegio is done continuously. Also it is similar to another pattern I do use in a falseta which uses p and a together, and then mimam. Also there is an exercise/study from Manolo Sanlucar that uses that pattern.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 17:42:24
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Guajiras de Lucia has a bunch of (ap)mipima patterns and amipima as well.


again, is it pamima? or pami pima? it's not pamima continuously anyway.

What I have found difficult in this passage (I have learnt and forgotten the first half of Guajiras de Lucia it a couple of times - never gotten beyond this falseta ) is the left hand, the left-right co-ordination, and the switch from arpegio to picado (yeah, I know, the first bit of scale in bar 76 is sin apoyando ) - at the speed I can manage those things (er.... pretty slow!) I find the the actual arpegios really easy.

The hardest part of the falseta for me is what comes next after the repeat, the high D maj chord - I've never been able to get the notes off that chord on 1st string 10th fret to 2nd string 14th fret clean consistently, and I've tried both full bar on D at 10th fret as Paco does in video, and half bar that some cover versions use.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 17:53:04
 
kitarist

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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

pimami I can do 16th sextuplets (6 notes per beat) continuous at 120 bpm, but pamima (again, 16th sextuplets - 6 notes per beat) I can only get to about 80 bpm!


See here http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=300412&mpage=1&key=pamima%2Carpeggio&s=#329957 for my experience with that and some discussion.

I keep practicing it (and it does get faster) because I believe there are "spill-over" benefits for things like pami speed and ease and m-a alternation speed, even tremolo fluidity and ease. Well, and it DOES help the Guajiras patterns mentioned above. I think you replied to my previous post before I added "(I am not saying they are the same pattern as pamima, just that they are similar)", and by "similar" I mean not just similarity in the fingers sequence, but also functionally training one seems to train the others.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 17:57:59
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to kitarist

quote:

See here http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=300412&mpage=1&key=pamima%2Carpeggio&s=#329957 for my experience with that and some discussion.

that's probably when I started practising pamima - not 3-4 months ago, more like 9 months ago!

time flies like an arrow (fruit flies like bananas)


quote:

I think you replied to my previous post before I added "(I am not saying they are the same pattern as pamima, just that they are similar)",

yep


quote:

Well, and it DOES help the Guajiras patterns mentioned above.

it's still the left hand that slows me down - I can do the arpegios really easily at the speed I can manage the left hand shapes, shifts and barres.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 18:11:41
 
kitarist

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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Guajiras de Lucia has a bunch of (ap)mipima patterns and amipima as well.


What I have found difficult in this passage (I have learnt and forgotten the first half of Guajiras de Lucia it a couple of times - never gotten beyond this falseta ) is the left hand, the left-right co-ordination, and the switch from arpegio to picado (yeah, I know, the first bit of scale in bar 76 is sin apoyando ) - at the speed I can manage those things (er.... pretty slow!) I find the the actual arpegios really easy.

The hardest part of the falseta for me is what comes next after the repeat, the high D maj chord - I've never been able to get the notes off that chord on 1st string 10th fret to 2nd string 14th fret clean consistently, and I've tried both full bar on D at 10th fret as Paco does in video, and half bar that some cover versions use.


I have lots of insights and suggestions about all that as I have been using that piece as a stretch goal (and inspiration) for the last 5 years in terms of diagnosing and correcting bad technique and improving good technique. The goal being playing it well at its studio recording speed, 104 bpm or so, WITH capo on first fret. If you are interested, maybe we can continue the Guajiras-specific stuff in Ramzi's Guajiras thread: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=194802 .. or here is OK too since I now referenced that thread and people can go read there as well.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 18:20:38
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to kitarist

I think around the time of that thread was when I was last working on it. After a while of working on it, it just seemed like I was hammering cold iron though. Sometimes it's better for me to take a break from something like that and come back to it later.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 18:32:34
 
kitarist

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RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to mark indigo

Yeah, my "problem" was/is that I never hit a wall - there was always some small progress on some aspect, or a newly diagnosed issue that I have to change/fix, etc. Very frustrating and hopeful at the same time; how do you declare "this is as far as it goes" when you haven't stopped improving quite yet..

In terms of leaving it for a while, it is my experience as well with coming back to a piece after a short break and finding some aspects have improved in the mean time.

Also that pamima thread was from 1 yr 9 months ago

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 18:41:33
 
Stu

Posts: 2076
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to kitarist

I bloody suck at that piece! 😄

Stolen some of the easier bits of it over the years but Some of it is just awkward as hell. Haven't had a go for a while. Maybe I'll dip back into it.

New foro challenge anyone? 😉
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2022 20:01:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

What I have found difficult in this passage (I have learnt and forgotten the first half of Guajiras de Lucia it a couple of times - never gotten beyond this falseta ) is the left hand, the left-right co-ordination, and the switch from arpegio to picado (yeah, I know, the first bit of scale in bar 76 is sin apoyando ) - at the speed I can manage those things (er.... pretty slow!) I find the the actual arpegios really easy.


In case you missed it I did a tutorial discussing both Paco’s method and my personal work arounds, and show the high D chord situation using a capo (Eb barre makes it even more challenging). Here at 33:40 onward:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2022 16:12:06
 
JasonM

Posts: 1853
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to devilhand

Devilhand, if you need an arp challenge than I suggest G Nunez Trafalgar!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2022 17:03:02
 
Stu

Posts: 2076
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to JasonM

Trafalgar?! 😬😳

Still got that secret video of that Ricardo?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2022 20:54:25
 
JasonM

Posts: 1853
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to Stu

Haha!

You mean this one?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2022 14:37:41
 
Stu

Posts: 2076
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to JasonM

Yeah!! That one. Nice. I wanna watch.but will probably end up feeling utterly useless
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2022 16:03:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: For arpegio freaks (in reply to Stu

Gerardo had shared the other version on social media years ago and I should have released this one too. The same performance but a different audio track. It starts with the original Cel phone audio and then at about 0:42 the audio source is coming from the microphone he has, way way in the back of the auditorium through a wall mounted speaker. (The thumping shows compression limiting that my friend had on his recording device).

The other audio was more ambient sound and this is coming out of the speaker so, even though it is not as nice a sound, you can hear the attack of his nails better.

https://youtu.be/7-4MZmGUxX4

Oddly, YouTube won’t let me link it here as normal viewing it says “owner has not allowed viewing, watch on YouTube”. Of course I did no such thing, but it used to be a private video. Not sure how to fix that.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2022 18:09:53
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