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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra   You are logged in as Guest
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Echi

 

Posts: 974
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to RobF

quote:

It was made by a top Madrid maker, wasn’t cheap, and it’s garbage, in my opinion...
..the workmanship truly is amazing, and I’ve learned from examining it


That's interesting Rob: can you say what have learned and why you think the sound is so poor?

I used to own a top notch Felix Manzanero: amazing woods and very well built.
I can't say the guitar was a dog because other people found it amazing but, well, after a while I used to have the same feeling you spoke about... Manzanero is a great maker but the fact is I couldn't stand that guitar.
I think the strange bridge played a part in it.
That guitar also used to have a very good projection and a kind of a poor feedback for the player.

I used to own also a guitar made by Manuel Caceres: again, very high quality everywhere and a certain allure in the tone and yet frustrating for other aspects. In my case I ended up being very disappointed... in this case, the same could be said also for the following owner because the guitar went sold 2 or 3 times afterwards.
Cannot say if it the next guitar made by Manuel was instead a canon or not, so my consideration of Caceres is still high.
I could go ahead with Montero etc. but I think my point is clear and yet I have learned something from each of those guitars..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2022 10:00:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

I got used to my Pedro where the string-neck distance is even below 2mm without buzzing,


WTF??? After all your story now sounds fishy.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2022 12:19:20
 
RobF

Posts: 1197
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Echi

quote:

That's interesting Rob: can you say what have learned and why you think the sound is so poor?


The problem with the guitar is it’s underdamped and has really bad wolf notes. The bracing is minimal and the bridge is short. The sides are laminated Brazilian Rosewood over EIR and the Brazilian layer on both sides has cracked. Inside layer is OK. The inside of the top is stamped and signed by the maker, but the label is specific for the Japanese market. Workmanship and appearance is on a par with the best works of the best of the Madrid Ramirez alumini, not surprising because that’s what it is.

I learned some important do’s and don’ts about resonances while trying to reduce the wolf notes and think I have figured out how to correct the guitar, but that would likely require the addition of a back brace, as it has only two. Most of what I learned, however, was related to aesthetics and workmanship, the guitar was built with a confident efficiency and shows no error in execution. The heel and head carving is beautiful and the French Polish work, which I suspect was done in the shop of a Madrid specialist, is perfect. But, the wolf notes are so strong the guitar’s virtually unplayable - in that sense, it fails it’s prime directive, which is to be a musical instrument. I might fix the cracks, add the brace, and use it as a shop guitar. Or burn it (only half joking). I guess part of why I detest it is because I felt a little ripped off, but also it just really bugs me that such a beautiful instrument can sound so bad.

I suspect with your knowledge you might have an idea about who may have made the guitar, it wasn’t anyone you mentioned, but because I’ve just slagged it online, I’m not comfortable with revealing who it is.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2022 0:18:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to RobF

Manzanero is a good sounding instrument, but has an odd skinny neck/narrow fingerboard that takes getting used to. The most strange guitar to me has always been Pedro de Miguel. A fine looking instrument, and there are some players that own them and love them…but they have no tone, and pure stiff response. I don’t understand the love for them honestly. Then I played one Dan Zeff had back in 2010 maybe? It sounded just great….and turns out it was the one our friend Blackshear “fine tuned”

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2022 12:06:26
 
Echi

 

Posts: 974
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Echi

Wolf notes are a tough matter.
I tried a couple of times to get rid of some bad resonances by adding a little weight in certain spots or to try to identify nodes with the Chandli patters: I had some improvements but for sure I'm not good enough to give advices.
Alan Carruth suggested many times to work on the back braces, as you have identified in your case.

As you say some former Ramirez employees had some fortune selling in Japan; a couple of them used to sell through Arcangel with a special label (Para casa Arcangel Fernandez).
Even Marcelino Lopez Nieto, after having left Hernandez Y Aguado established a good link with the Japanese market through Arcangel in the late sixties.

Yes, the Manzanero used to have a thinner neck than usual, which I for one found comfortable, but I understand someone can find it odd.
Anyway the fine tuning of the fretboard and bridge was very accurate and well thought: I even noticed the spacing of the first strings was slightly different than the other strings.
Basically the guitar was recalling the spruce topped pre-1965 Ramirez guitars, but with high quality woods and lighter bracing.
I didn't like the unusual bridge shape and the player feedback though.

Pedro de Miguel is love or hate. I know they have been the first choice of many pro player in Madrid. Pepe Habichuela used to favour Pedro de Miguel as well.
After the death of Pedro Perez in '98 their name was less heard, I am not sure why.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2022 20:27:57
 
silddx

Posts: 77
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

New guitar day, today?!

I do hope it's all you desire. Looking forward to hearing about it!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2022 10:18:15
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2022 21:29:31
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2022 21:33:58
 
RobF

Posts: 1197
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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

OK, first off, learn how to take a frikken’ measurement! The action you are showing in the picture is about 2mm at the 11th fret and 3mm from the wood. It’s ridiculously low!

Secondly, the amount of saddle showing is perfectly normal for a flamenco guitar. I think somehow due the steel string world and the internet, people have come to expect to see tons of saddle showing above the wood to allow for neck resets and the like sometime in the distant future. This is simply practically and aesthetically inappropriate to do on a flamenco. You need enough wood to support the bone.

At this point you’re pretty well slandering Antonio Rey and HSL, and if the first guitar’s action was actually lower than this one’s and then the guitar was returned after being used and replaced with this new guitar then all I can say is nobody and I mean nobody will be able to make you happy.

I’d happily buy this guitar from you at a stupidly low price and have it shipped to North America if you promise not to touch it in any way. One scratch, one strum, one string change and the deal is off. But that would be insane. It’s a perfectly good guitar as far as action goes and you should have no trouble at all selling it for what you paid without resorting to that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2022 22:26:00
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3308
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to RobF

quote:

OK, first off, learn how to take a frikken’ measurement!


In spite of the many comments on this thread advising him how to take a measurement, he still does not seem to understand that the measurement should be at the 12th fret from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string. There is nothing left to say.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2022 22:44:08
 
RobF

Posts: 1197
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

In spite of the many comments on this thread advising him how to take a measurement, he still does not seem to understand that the measurement should be at the 12th fret from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string.


I was probably too vague about this at first and thankfully silddx pointed that important detail out a number of posts back. I regret that I wasn’t very diplomatic in my reply and I should have counted to ten a few times before posting. I feel bad for Antonio Rey, as he seems to have been acting in good faith and the guitar is as per the picture he had provided and I had already said the action in that picture appeared to be less than 2.5mm. It’s not like he sent a different guitar. But, none of that is an excuse to be snarky and I apologize to the Foro and all involved for reacting like that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2022 23:48:32
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2022 23:52:41
 
RobF

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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

Yes,you last comment was definiately rude and countrified. Think before you write or speak. A good advise.


Please do not deign to lecture me. At this point I think you are a dishonest troll who knows nothing about the instrument. While I may have been impolitic in my reply, you have happily slandered a public figure with absolutely zero evidence to back up your words. Finally, fingerboards are not supposed to be lacquered.

I won’t reply to any more of your posts, but if we are going to talk about advice, maybe the best advice is for you to apologize to Antonio Rey for dragging his name through the mud and putting him through all this nonsense.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2022 23:58:36
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 0:02:48
 
RobF

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Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

The photos shows all information needed. I have back up, and proof, beacuse I have the photos of the last guitar and I have this one now. So what are you even talking about man omg.
I got the same guitar, he promised me a different one with lower measurements, he did not fulfilled that. Now, I will report you to the admins…


Report away.

The fact is the photo Antonio sent you of the replacement guitar, the one which I said showed action of less than 2.5mm, and the one you just posted actually confirms that you received the replacement he said he was going to send as the two photos are of the same guitar. The grain and sanding scratches are identical. The photo of the original measurements on the first shows a different guitar. As you said, the photos don’t lie and they prove he didn’t just send back the same guitar.

I think the best thing for you is to wait until morning and in the light of a new day reconsider some of the things you’ve said. Seek advice from a local professional. I don’t really care if you get all pushy with me, as it seems to happen on here more often than I’d like and still I’m foolish enough to continue to try to help people. But you’re way out of line in the things you’ve been saying about not only Antonio Rey, but also the guitars he’s sent you. That’s a different matter, and it’s time it’s put to a stop.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 0:40:10
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 0:48:18
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3218
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew83

I told you, its the very same guitar and in addition, the neck itself is NOT lacquered. So its very careless work :(
So there is no point to defend Antonio. I got the very same guitar, so he did NOT help me at all, instead of that, he threatened me,
he ruined the parcel force full schedule, because he was not willing to be any of THREE appointments he were given...so please, lets be honest...I was NOT slandering. I was honest, and about Tony, I dont want to share my honest toughts about him,because I will probably be banned by using dirty words.





1) The action of the last guitar pictured is 2mm at the twelfth fret, low even for a flamenco guitar.


2) Twice in the quote above you say the same guitar was sent to you. That may not be what you intended, but that is precisely what the quote says in the English language.

3) A normal amount of bone for a flamenco guitar is showing at the bridge.

4) The fingerboard on good quality classical and flamenco guitars is never lacquered.

Conclusion: You are unfamiliar with good quality flamenco guitars. Despite repeated instruction, you still don’t know how to measure the action of a guitar. You are very likely to be angry at Antonio Rey for at least a partial misunderstanding, if not a complete misunderstanding. You have insulted expert Foro members who tried to help you.

RNJ

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 3:44:40
 
silddx

Posts: 77
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

Here are a couple of photos I just took showing how to take a a couple of rudimentary measurements of your instrument. You can't do this on with your 20 year old schoolboy ruler. The mm marks are too thick and the measurement needs to start at the end of the ruler. Ideally you need a proper tool like they sell at Stew Mac. But my ruler is decent and suffices for this purpose. A shade under 3mm at the 12th, about 7mm at the bridge.

My guitar in the photos is an apparently hand built Juan Montes Rodriguez 1a that was listed new at 1700 Euro.

You have not said anything about the sound and playability of your new guitar. Only measurements which are not the full picture. However, only you can say if you like it or not, but you can't make a judgement on that solely with measurements. It has to sound and feel good too.

I'm sad you are unhappy. Perhaps your have poisoned your own expectations though. Also, I have to say, your responses to RobF are unacceptable.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 9:59:00
 
silddx

Posts: 77
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

This is what 4mm looks like, higher than yours right? This is on an cheap Admira.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 10:12:38
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

Years ago I switched from a student Bernal to a Hermanos Borja. Same as here, it was a "name" series, in this case El Viejin. As I understand it, the whole point is to have a guitar made to specs set by the artist in question, so maybe all this is is just that the specs Antonio likes to play with aren't the specs you like to play with. But it kind of defeats the point of getting a name series guitar if you don't want to try those specs in the first place.

Anyway, at first I found the Borja more difficult to play than the Bernal, but in the end the problem wasn't the guitar; it was me, and more specifically my technique. Now when I go back to the Bernal I find it "too easy" if that makes any sense. The Borja is superior in every way. It was just a bigger beast to tame.

If there's a chance that applies to you, maybe stick with it for a while and see how it develops. If it's like it was for me, you'll come out of it a better guitarist.

If not, just sell it and move on. Dragging it out won't benefit anyone, not least yourself nor the professional luthiers here who are understandably getting frustrated that their (free and generous) advice keeps falling on deaf ears.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 10:16:49
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 11:54:53
 
Arash

Posts: 4463
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

The only thing I can tell you after reading all this is: you will probably have the exact same experience with other guitars as well. if you expect 2mm with (no buzzing, buzzing, I don't even know because first you said it had no buzzing with 2mm, now you say it buzzed all the time :D).

I would not order ANY guitar in your case, to be shipped. Try to go to a shop or something and try out guitars. The chances of the seller/you both being pissed off another time is VERY HIGH

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 12:15:07
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3308
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

The replacement guitar build has exactly the same measurements like the one I sent back, but Antonio promised me, I would get a better measurments that would fit me. He did not fulfill that.
That is not a slander as Robf accused and violated me, its a fact. So it was an unnecessary round with the parcel force.

My ignorance led me to a huge and very painful disappointment...


As everyone has pointed out, Antonio sent you a perfectly good guitar. The action is nowhere near 4mm at the 12th fret; the fingerboard is not lacquered because it shouldn't be; and the whole setup looks very good. It is you, not the guitar, who needs adjustment. You need to first learn the fundamentals of guitar setup, measurement, etc., before you go spouting off about Rob, Antonio, and others.

And speaking of spouting off, it was you at the beginning who asked what members of the Foro thought about your situation. They responded, and you did not like or agree with many of the responses. You had already made up your mind that you were the injured party. And you most certainly did slander Antonio with some of your comments, to the point where he might even have a case for taking legal action if he so desired.

Three things stand out in this thread:

1. You really don't want anyone's opinion. You are just fishing for everyone to agree with your own preconceived opinion.

2. You are a know-it-all about things you know nothing about.

3. The only thing you have written that makes sense is the last line of the cited quote above: "My ignorance led me to a huge and very painful disappointment..."

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 13:34:14
 
orsonw

Posts: 1521
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to BarkellWH

The first guitar looks well set up for flamenco, action looks to be at about 3mm (pink lines)?
The replacement looks even lower at 2.5 (green lines)?

Of course these aren't the best photos but clearly there is nothing wrong with the action for a flamenco guitar. It seems like Antonio Rey and Hermanos Sanchis sent a perfectly well set up flamenco guitar to begin with, and have then offered good service and patience by sending a replacement with lower action. Action isn't the only factor e.g. maybe the pulsación was too stiff for you. This is not a fault in the guitar just a personal preference.

As you say:
quote:

It turned out something very important to me about this whole story. I learnt much from it...

My ignorance led me to a huge and very painful disappointment, as you can imagine.


I suggest raising the action on your Maldonado to 2.8mm or 3mm, if bridge height has room and can stay below 8/8.5mm. Then learn to improve your technique playing with a normal flamenco set up. You can get online lessons if there's no one local. If you improve then many more flamenco guitars will become an option for you, because 2mm or less is uncommon. But still I recommend that you try a guitar in person before buying if you are not experienced with flamenco guitars. Good luck.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 15:55:33
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

The OP and folks here are too much focused on the string height at the 12th fret. How about the string height at the bridge? An even more important factor.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 16:22:02
 
Mark2

Posts: 1696
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Echi

I’m left handed so I have never had the opportunity to play dozens of different guitars. I have managed to accumulate a dozen or so guitars though. Electrics and flamencos.Flamencos I’ve got a cheap Yamaha flamenco, a Ramirez 1a, a conde, and a DeVoe, and another one. I’ve never measured the action on any guitar. Each one is different and I take them for what they are. In general the ones I paid the most for are better than the cheaper ones. Now I want to buy a ruler :-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 19:18:16
 
ernandez R

Posts: 532
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Mark2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

I’m left handed so I have never had the opportunity to play dozens of different guitars. I have managed to accumulate a dozen or so guitars though. Electrics and flamencos.Flamencos I’ve got a cheap Yamaha flamenco, a Ramirez 1a, a conde, and a DeVoe, and another one. I’ve never measured the action on any guitar. Each one is different and I take them for what they are. In general the ones I paid the most for are better than the cheaper ones. Now I want to buy a ruler :-)



Rulers? We don't need no stinking rulers...

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 19:59:24
 
kitarist

Posts: 1454
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Arash

To OP: Now I REALLY want to see a picture of this Maldonado with less than 2mm action measured from the bottom of the fret wire as you do in your pics of the HSL guitars, and having a lacquered fretboard (since that’s what you clearly expected with the HSL).

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 21:04:38
 
silddx

Posts: 77
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to kitarist

I was going to ask earlier but thought better of it, at the time. I'd like to see this as well.

I have a Yamaha CG182SF that has a 2.8mm action on the low E at the 12th, and it's a very nice player, sounds decent too. I wonder if a swap might be on the cards ;)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2022 22:14:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

Look at that distance again !!!!!!!!!!!!!
And of ****ing course, the bone cannot be lowered again.


Well, it is a shame that you are not happy. Looks like they have a standard set up for this model. In all honesty the bone has plenty of break angle to come WAY down….as I said you need only maintain angle of greater than ZERO, and you could even squeeze an extra millimeter by tying the string differently (some players are using these string tie things for this very reason). However, a simple check is to remove the bone saddle (I said this earlier) and tune it up to pitch and see how the action feels at zero break angle.

It might STILL be too high for you, and if this is the case, as I suspect is possible based on your explanation of the Maldonado, then it is simply not the guitar for you. I am sure you could sell it at normal price online, but from where I stand I don’t believe this guitar is flawed. There is nothing wrong with getting used to a super low action, I know lots of people that need that setup. And yes, they all think that guitars like mine feel like “driving a truck”. I get it, and you have a right to not be happy with that. But you feel cheated and targeted and this is likely NOT the case.

I remember when Nuñez picked up someone’s guitar in class and started playing some aggressive arpeggios with barre chords and with that strength the guitar was so low it sounded like a banjo! Everybody was cracking up. But the guy who owned the guitar played it and it sounded fine and normal. So this is a personal thing, yet objectively, there is a better set up for the style of right hand technique. Try not to get upset about it, give the guitar a chance FIRST, and as I said, it should sell used no problem.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2022 14:30:29
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