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henrym3483

Posts: 1554
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

Mojama 

a rather untalked about Artist from Jerez Juanito Mojama, JUAN VALENCIA CARPIO.
Heres a solea with miguel borrull on the guitar.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2022 19:24:01
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1153
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Mojama (in reply to henrym3483

I didn't know Miguel Borull accompanied him in this recording. Here's Juan Mojama Collection with 16 tracks from Colección Oro flamenco de Jerez, vol. 1. The first track is the one you posted above.

https://archive.org/details/JUAN_MOJAMA/AUNQUE+TOQUEN+A+REBATO-SOLEARES.mp3

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2022 21:17:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mojama (in reply to henrym3483

THat is Ramon Montoya playing guitar clearly.

The style is Serneta 7

http://canteytoque.es/soleares.htm#serneta4

Scroll down to 7.

Nice to see a Jerezano singing a style from Triana attributed to a singer from Utrera.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2022 12:13:09
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1554
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Mojama (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

THat is Ramon Montoya playing guitar clearly.

The style is Serneta 7

http://canteytoque.es/soleares.htm#serneta4

Scroll down to 7.

Nice to see a Jerezano singing a style from Triana attributed to a singer from Utrera.


Ricardo, thanks for the correction. I'll have a look at Normans site again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2022 13:55:53
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1554
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Mojama (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Nice to see a Jerezano singing a style from Triana attributed to a singer from Utrera.


So many twists and turns with this stuff. e.g. the seguiriyas "el reniego" which tomas pavon sang and is well known for, but really it came through manuel cagancho from his father antonio.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2022 14:03:52
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1153
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Mojama (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

THat is Ramon Montoya playing guitar clearly.

Correct.

quote:

The style is Serneta 7

Actually the above Solea is not Serneta. It's Soleares de "El Mellizo".

https://www.elflamencovive.com/italian/juan-mojama-la-modernidad-cantaora-de-juan-mojama.html

La Serneta you're talking about is the 11th track in my link above.

https://archive.org/details/JUAN_MOJAMA/PRESUMES+QUE+ERES+LA+CIENCIA-SOLEARES.mp3

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2022 21:07:57
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 105
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Mojama (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Actually the above Solea is not Serneta. It's Soleares de "El Mellizo".


The second letra that he sings is quite clearly the one listed in the Serneta #7 section. The first letra is Paquirri #1. You can hear a clearer example of that in the track "que toquen a rebato" recorded by Aurelio Sellés. All three of the letras that he sings in this recording are listed in the canteytoque resource.

"Presumes que eres la ciencia" is indeed a letra from La Serneta, but it's in a different style (#1 -- it's sung to the same melody and has more or less the same metrical pattern as "fui piedra y perdí mi centro")
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2022 0:11:07
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3218
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Mojama (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

THat is Ramon Montoya playing guitar clearly.


During the guitar intro at 16:00 I think Mojama says "¡Ramon!" but it's not perfectly clear.

Does anyone hear something else?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2022 3:24:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mojama (in reply to tf10music

quote:

ORIGINAL: tf10music

quote:

Actually the above Solea is not Serneta. It's Soleares de "El Mellizo".


The second letra that he sings is quite clearly the one listed in the Serneta #7 section. The first letra is Paquirri #1. You can hear a clearer example of that in the track "que toquen a rebato" recorded by Aurelio Sellés. All three of the letras that he sings in this recording are listed in the canteytoque resource.

"Presumes que eres la ciencia" is indeed a letra from La Serneta, but it's in a different style (#1 -- it's sung to the same melody and has more or less the same metrical pattern as "fui piedra y perdí mi centro")


Good catch, yes I meant the second letra of course. The thing is they often go labeling everything off of the first letra, so when things get mixed up so do the aficionado opinions. Seeing how personal styles such as paquirri and serneta cross regions anyway, I get the general feeling that the regional designations are totally misleading. Personal designations are helpful but also probably not based in reality. I am thinking a reworking using a numerical system would work the best if anybody decides to upgrade or reorganize the complete catalogues of cantes. IMO.

For the record Terremoto senior talks about mojama in interviews in Rito y Geografia and Moraito named him as his favorite cantaor from history in an interview at some point. So I was quite familiar with his name before I even heard these historic examples on Norman’s site. I have shared several times the serneta 1 example where Ramon breaks the compas in half, the perfect classic example that Solea and Buleria share the option to do that in the cambio (change to C major) and that it was not an exclusive thing to buleria larga and fast buleria etc. I never forgot when Pro fess or Ruben claimed Paco invented the medio compas.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2022 11:52:21
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 105
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Mojama (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Good catch, yes I meant the second letra of course. The thing is they often go labeling everything off of the first letra, so when things get mixed up so do the aficionado opinions. Seeing how personal styles such as paquirri and serneta cross regions anyway, I get the general feeling that the regional designations are totally misleading. Personal designations are helpful but also probably not based in reality. I am thinking a reworking using a numerical system would work the best if anybody decides to upgrade or reorganize the complete catalogues of cantes. IMO.


One of my favorite things about flamenco is that cantaores can throw different letras together according to their preference! And I'm not just speaking in terms of music. The letras really do carry different energy depending on what is alongside them (this practice is what many would term 'bricolage'). Melodically, I think that mix between Paquirri and Serneta works really nicely in the Mojama recording (whereas if he'd decided to sing something with the melody of Serneta #1 alongside the Paquirri, for instance, it might not have gone as well). But just as importantly, that resonance between "a mi vera nadie se acerque" in the Serneta letra and "las campanas del olvido" from Paquirri -- that's great stuff!

I think a numerical system of organization would be cool! I guess that would mean listing the letras according to their melodies, and then having footers with personal/regional attribution for each letra so that everything can be cross-referenced.

Also I didn't know that people thought that Paco invented the medio compas -- I always assumed it was a lot older. Anytime there's a practice that 'breaks a rule' in a music that was once orally transmitted and at best sparsely codified, it's logical to assume that it predates the 'rule' (unless proven otherwise, of course).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2022 4:11:24
 
etta

 

Posts: 322
Joined: Jan. 20 2010
 

RE: Mojama (in reply to henrym3483

Thanks all; great historical recordings and on the mark.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2022 16:56:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mojama (in reply to tf10music

quote:

Also I didn't know that people thought that Paco invented the medio compas -- I always assumed it was a lot older.


Not “people”…a single “person” thought that and included it in a “scientific paper” based on factual historical evidence (his personal CD collection of only PDL material). THE Professor.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2022 17:08:31
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1554
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Mojama (in reply to Ricardo

quote:



For the record Terremoto senior talks about mojama in interviews in Rito y Geografia and Moraito named him as his favorite cantaor from history in an interview at some point. So I was quite familiar with his name before I even heard these historic examples on Norman’s site. I have shared several times the serneta 1 example where Ramon breaks the compas in half, the perfect classic example that Solea and Buleria share the option to do that in the cambio (change to C major) and that it was not an exclusive thing to buleria larga and fast buleria etc. I never forgot when Pro fess or Ruben claimed Paco invented the medio compas


I must pull out the dvds and have a listen again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2022 19:52:28
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1153
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Mojama (in reply to henrym3483

Juan Mojama is mentioned in an interview with Luis Maravilla.

"Juanito Mojama was another outstanding singer. I liked him very much. I played for him in Villa Rosa often. He sang like Chacón, but in his own style. He was a very serious and complete singer. Being Gypsy, he adapted Chacón’s song to his own particular qualities, but he was also phenomenal in tientos, siguiriyas, soleá…"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2022 11:06:11
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