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I know I have asked something similar before - but couldn't find the post to bring up.
I have the very terrible problem of loving Paco de Lucia pieces and falsetas that are far beyond my ability to learn and play in any reasonable time, and an ear that finds most other traditional pieces and falsetas "boring" (please don't throw eggs). Perhaps I don't really love true flamenco but only the jazzed up instrumental version of it - don't hate me for that (and I know I'm not alone.)
I'm wondering if anyone can suggest some pieces and falsetas, or even methods that have modern sounding, "tasteful" (to those that are PDL 'snobs' like myself) falsetas that require far less technique than PDL's pieces - if that's possible.
Posts: 1932
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to joevidetto)
How comfortable are you with syncopated phrases? I think that’s key. Even simple older stuff can be modern sounding when the rhythms of the phrases are tweaked.
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
How comfortable are you with syncopated phrases? I think that’s key. Even simple older stuff can be modern sounding when the rhythms of the phrases are tweaked.
I see now that this is going to become a Yerai Cortés thread and I endorse it
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
How comfortable are you with syncopated phrases? I think that’s key. Even simple older stuff can be modern sounding when the rhythms of the phrases are tweaked.
A good musician can rewrite and tweak the style of almost any piece of music and come up with something equally good or better (I think)...not sure that I can do that yet. I sure would love to hear some examples of an original traditional style falseta tweaked to sound 'modern' and - at least to my ear, 'more interesting'.
For me, with the modern stuff, I think besides the technical difficulty of executing the pieces, there is a lack of familiarity with the voicings, fingerings, and harmonies that add to the problem, making the falstas harder to commit to memory - definitely also due to lack of productive practice and focus - but also to not having 'worked up' to this properly. I'll just head this productive criticism off that I know will be coming my way as a result of my earlier text - of course I'm not opposed to practicing some of the 'right' traditional or accompaniment pieces that clearly lead to the familiarity I need to execute the modern stuff....but them, I think I'm describing an evolution that I have not committed the time to following.
I would actually love to 'work backwards' with a series of pieces needed for mastery before tackling a modern piece (even if I only learn a couple of the falsetas from each).
For example - a couple of pieces I've been analyzing and looking at voicings and fingerings are from Leiva's PDL Sirocco book - my favorites - the tanguillos Casilda and the alegrias La Barossa, and the rumba Cana de Azucar. Besides the syncopation, the other things I mentioned are also not familiar to me - e.g. voicings, fingerings, and harmonies. Curious if anyone has worked up to these pieces by tackling other particular pieces that prepared them.
To put all this in perspective - I'm attracted to and trying to play pieces that are clearly beyond me, but I'm unaware of the pieces that would prepare me to tackle these. PDL's stuff is like going from crawling to poll-volting. Perhaps the only way to get there is to put the time into the traditional flamenco, accompaniment, etc....that's why there are "hobbyists" and "professionals".
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to joevidetto)
My understanding of it is that "modern sounding" flamenco often syncopates around the standard compas patterns and also reharmonises the traditional chords. But, the feeling of the compas and understanding of the tradional chords/letras has to be there otherwise you are just faking it.
John Walsh once did a great workshop where we took very traditional solea falsettas and just started them a 16th note earlier and they sounded more modern for sure. You can then do this with a few other notes etc.
Have you got the Chicuelo Encuentro DVD? Thats got some awesome stuff of it, some it it playable by us mortals and he can play really slowly and clear for video :).
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to johnnefastis)
quote:
Chicuelo Encuentro DVD
Thanks for sharing John - I haven't listened to that CD in a while, but if my memory serves, a LOT of Chicuelo's material is very syncopated.
I think Enrique de Melchor and John Haddad might be the closest of what I'm looking for - are there any others you can think of ? Funny enough Moraito and Pepe Habicheula's material sounds easier (and likely is) - but when I go to play it, it's way harder than it sounds with the timing/syncopation.
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to joevidetto)
quote:
way harder than it sounds with the timing/syncopation.
Ha ha lets face it they are all in another stratosphere.
If you like John Haddad why not try an online class. In my experience many pro players can show what they do clearly, explain the timing etc also show simplified vesions. https://amirjohnhaddad.com/en/onlineclasses/
Posts: 15201
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to joevidetto)
I feel like we had this conversation already and the result is…you don’t like the options. Meaning your tastes don’t like to engage with the things you are after that we know will help you…and then you think the things you ACTUALLY do like are too difficult. So a sort of impasse not sure how to move forward. Nunez material is your best bet…study the Encuentro video. He gets you trad technique and how to use it for modern stuff. It is very Paco oriented in style.
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
Does nobody listen to guitarra pa' accompañar? This is what you need to learn
Certainly true, but hard to accept, as al principio we only wanted to ba a guitar hero. Unfortunately cantaores are hard to find in most parts of this world. Such is our dilemma.
Posts: 1932
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to Ricardo)
I was going to mention the Nunez dvd. He has some stuff there that isn’t too insane but then I thought the idea of writing the words Nunez and “simple” or “easy” in the same sentence was sorta crazy. The reality is that that dvd could keep one busy for years. It’s gold. I wish it was available when I started. I always take Morente’s advice to heart, and I listen to cante and study the accompaniment but the reality for many of us is little opportunity to put it into practice. Nevertheless it’s a part of my pursuit of becoming a more complete guitarist.
Joe, I’ve also spent a lot of time trying to play material that is beyond me. A lot of solos I tried to get under my fingers and failed. In the last year and a half I’ve been studying with Tino online. He has some easier stuff and some difficult modern syncopated falsetas. I’ve learned a lot of them. He also teaches stuff by Habichuela, Nunez, and Moraito. When you play back your recordings you realize even the simplest things can be difficult to get sounding good. And at least for me, getting a good sound playing anything flamenco is extremely satisfying. I’ve learned more falsetas and Compás in that time than in the five years previously. The gentle pressure of having to record something new every month gives me incentive to practice at a time when I’ve left performing behind me. Finally, check out Antonio Rey’s solea - there are some me great modern falsetas. Got the transcription from TabsFlamenco Ive managed to learn several of them. Took me months to make my hands play some of them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I feel like we had this conversation already and the result is…you don’t like the options. Meaning your tastes don’t like to engage with the things you are after that we know will help you…and then you think the things you ACTUALLY do like are too difficult. So a sort of impasse not sure how to move forward. Nunez material is your best bet…study the Encuentro video. He gets you trad technique and how to use it for modern stuff. It is very Paco oriented in style.
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to joevidetto)
Hi Joe, it's been a while since I've been on here, hope you're doing ok
quote:
I think Enrique de Melchor and John Haddad might be the closest of what I'm looking for - are there any others you can think of ? Funny enough Moraito and Pepe Habicheula's material sounds easier (and likely is) - but when I go to play it, it's way harder than it sounds with the timing/syncopation.
I think technique-wise Enrique de Melchor is if anything more difficult than Moraito. Probably John Haddad same (I don't have his Encuentro DVD! yeah, I know "El Amir" didn't make an Encuentro DVD )
You might try Oscar Herrero - Paso a Paso DVD's - technique/Solea/Alegrias - he does teach some old/trad stuff but also "updated" material (and the Solea and Alegrias have some cante accompaniment too). Also he now has stuff on YouTube, including "obras para Grado Medio" - take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/c/OscarHerreroEdiciones/playlists
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
I was going to mention the Nunez dvd. He has some stuff there that isn’t too insane but then I thought the idea of writing the words Nunez and “simple” or “easy” in the same sentence was sorta craz
Same here!
Actually, this sounds like my learning path lol. Attempt a piece, put in some hard work, give up and move on to something else. Eventually things got more familiar/ easier and less novel. Dance accompaniment class was the only time that I had to force myself to lower my standards to what i wished I was able to play… face reality.
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to mecmachin)
quote:
Certainly true, but hard to accept, as al principio we only wanted to ba a guitar hero. Unfortunately cantaores are hard to find in most parts of this world. Such is our dilemma.
Mecmachin
I agree When I lived in Ireland I had the same problem. But I loved cante, so I used to play along to a cassete of Manuel Soto with Melchor. Así you learn the palos and the elastic compás. Metreomes are good: if you do not have compás you cannot make it elastic.
So when I came to Spain and had a real cantaor, I could accompany him, though badly. I always remember Paco Reyes, my first cantaor: I accompanied him por Alegrías and he said "muy bien, tiene compás, sabe los tonos pero no tiene soniquete". He was right, but soniquete you can only learn by doing it.
RE: Easiest-to-play "modern&quo... (in reply to joevidetto)
Thank you all for the supportive, insightful, posts that let me know I'm not uniquely ignorant and there are indeed other people that can relate to my dilemma.
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yeah, I know "El Amir" didn't make an Encuentro DVD 
When I lived in Ireland I had the same problem. But I loved cante, so I used to play along to a cassete of Manuel Soto with Melchor. Así you learn the palos and the elastic compás. Metreomes are good: if you do not have compás you cannot make it elastic. 
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