Guitar in flamenco history

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devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

Guitar in flamenco history

Yesterday I read an article. The following quote was interesting and makes me want to open a thread about guitar in flamenco history.

https://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/erg/evolution.htm

"Tyler and Sparks point out that in Spain, in the 1700's, there were 2 styles of guitar playing: "noisy music" which consisted of much strumming by the commoners, and "court music" which consisted of refined compositions for the aristocracy. The term "musica ruidosa" was used by Gaspar Sanz in his method book of 1674. Perhaps this is the root of the "classical" versus "flamenco" guitar styles in Spain, as well as today's split between popular steel string and electric guitars, and the "classical" guitar. References to rasgueado techniques, similar or identical to those used by today's flamenco players, are cited in Baroque guitar publications. The desire of Spaniards to produce forceful strumming in noisy bars and such is probably one reason for adding a 6th course. However, another reason was that a 6th string eliminated the awkward chord inversions required on the 5-course guitar."

As we know guitar is introduced into flamenco as an accompanying instrument in the early 1800's. Is this all we know?
If flamenco guitar history is not old, there must be reliable sources about the development of flamenco guitar techniques. Can we say R. Montoya is responsible for the most flamenco techniques we know today except rasguedo and pulgar related techniques? What do we know more about Miguel Garcia?
Where is the origin of rasgueado? Most sources say the prototype of rasgueado was used on Barock guitar in the 17. and 18 century.
Another interesting question is where does falseta come from? In my opinion we could trace its origin back to melodic lines played by oud. So clearly of arabic/moorish origin. Before going down the rabbit hole on internet, I ask you experts on the foro.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2021 15:23:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar in flamenco history (in reply to devilhand)

All questions good, and tackled by flamencology in various ways. The problem is there is not much written down, and the interpretation of what little was written down. Ritornello might be the “falseta” origin concept vs Arabic stuff, but one could argue vocal polyphony and ritornello, rasgueado even, are the evolved stages of older musics such as Arabic or even Greek. But all music owes ancestry to that stuff. There is a great filter of western music that all that needs to pass through in order to arrive at flamenco as we know it. As for 6/strings, the Vihuela was the spanish contribution that filters out ud-lute-5 string guitar. So Vihuela is more the influence on modern guitar. Once you arrrive at Torres you can next blame segovia for the split between courtly classical music vs flamenco, and with that split a new instrument distinction evolves.

Watch the guitar in Spain by Julian bream to see and hear the guitar evolving from Vihuela. Flamenco is included in chapter 4.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2021 16:27:54

Beni2

Posts: 139
Joined: Apr. 23 2018

RE: Guitar in flamenco history (in reply to devilhand)

I cover many of these questions. Unfortunately, one has to speculate and theorize based on the available data. I once argued on the foro that Foscarini was the grandpappy of flamenco because once the rasgueado/chordal style got created, it ran parallel to the plucked style. The rasgueado style was more of a folk style but I wouldn't emphasize the "classical"/folk, high/low divisions too much. They are false dichotomies. The court "classical" composers always borrowed from the commoners. We wouldn't have fandango, chaconnes, or passacaglias if court composers didn't take popular/folk dance and songs.

Anyway, my argument about Foscarini was that he was the first to mix the strummed (rasgueado) style and the plucked (punteado) style. So think of compas vs falseta. Flamenco guitarists are direct heirs to the Spanish baroque guitarists (it seems). The last rasgueado book was published in 1752 I believe, and we don't have much info after that. By 1799 the hybrid rasgueado/punteado style began to fall out of favor and the plucked style took over. Fernandiere and Moretti shift from Alfabeto to modern notation so there is a gap. However, we know El Planeta played in the rasgueado style (not sure if we can really call him flamenco based on the ensemble playing and the Palos he knew [seguiriya is attributed; letra not Melody]) so that leaves a gap of about 50 years. It is possible but improbable that flamenco re-invented the rasgueado style.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2021 17:08:14

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Guitar in flamenco history (in reply to Beni2)

I appreciate your inputs. Great overview. Got me started in diving right into this topic. Glad that I found this paper by Daniel Gil de Avalle & Enca González.

http://www.centrodedocumentacionmusicaldeandalucia.es/ojs/index.php/mos/article/view/255/studying-torres-guitars-part-i

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2021 14:56:04

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Guitar in flamenco history (in reply to devilhand)

Totally understand why 16th century rasgueado sounded noisy. Sometimes less is better. I think rasgueado sounds always better on a 6 string guitar.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2021 19:31:13