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Extra hard tension composite strings — damage to guitar?   You are logged in as Guest
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bahen

Posts: 314
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

Extra hard tension composite strings... 

Hi all. I have been using D'Addario extra hard tension composite strings on my blanca for pretty much the last 15 years. But I recently brought my guitar to a wetter climate (... England... where's that umbrella emoji when you need it?)

I've noticed that (1) the height between the strings and the top of the guitar at the saddle end and (2) the height between the strings and the top of the top of guitar over the sound hole has diverged a bit—i.e., increasing a tiny bit as one moves from (1) to (2). This made me wonder if it could be that the extra hard tension strings are pulling on the top too much?

Or is the difference in height between (1) and (2) normal, and is it that I'm just noticing it now?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2021 11:33:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13003
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

You need a before and after measure to compare, however, a proper neck angle set for flamenco will show this angle from the start. The main thing you notice if the top is sinking and the neck angle increasing is the action over the 12th fret will have increased significantly. If this hasn’t happened I wouldn’t worry.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2021 13:06:57
 
bahen

Posts: 314
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Ricardo

Many thanks, Ricardo, as always.

Edit: Out of curiosity, is there a way to fix the problem you just described, i.e., increasing neck angle and sinking top?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2021 21:21:54
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

quote:

Hi all. I have been using D'Addario extra hard tension composite strings on my blanca for pretty much the last 15 years


Getting back to the music, how is the musicality? Has it lost some of its musical ability?

Sometimes when the top is too tight it will go dead musically.

What to do..........possibly use a lower tension string.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2021 22:32:48
 
Edris

 

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 23 2021
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

I have a student Conde from the 60's

I would also be curious to know what to do to resolve neck sinking causing higher action.
Any way to avoid a neck reset and still lower action?

Is this an even an option:

https://youtu.be/K1H4xy52RuM
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2021 17:54:01
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 444
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

Try a set of cheapo regular normal tension classical strings?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2021 11:19:02
 
JasonM

Posts: 1701
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Edris

quote:

Is this an even an option:

https://youtu.be/K1H4xy52RuM


Yikes. Not with your guitar. I think the proper way to do this on a classical is to remove the back from the guitar since that locks in the angle on a Spanish heel.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2021 14:46:53
 
Echi

 

Posts: 939
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

Frank Ford from Gryphon guitars years ago uploaded a video with a similar method. Of course the professional way calls for un-gluing the fretboard, reshape the inner part of the heel to correct the neck angle and to make a proper joint to fix the neck again.
Eventually it sounds easier to remove the fretboard and fixing the neck without sawing it off.

Hard tension strings are usually not such a greater tension than medium tension strings so that to cause problems to the neck. Recently built guitars have to be able to work with HT strings without problems.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2021 15:06:37
 
JasonM

Posts: 1701
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Echi

If you saw off the heel I could see how the back and soundboard would still lock the 2 ribs in, but would think that if glue wasn’t used in the heel joint, the ends of each side might spring out..? I guess you could just glue and clamp them flush in this case and re attach the heel?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2021 16:05:11
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1777
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

I think the proper way to do this on a classical is to remove the back from the guitar since that locks in the angle on a Spanish heel.


This is what Reyes once told me, but since I always considered him an embustero and the guitar was not too bad, I suggested planing the fingerboard, which would be much cheaper. He reluctantly ageed. It worked perfectly.

However, if the problem is acute, then removing the back is correct.

I have said before that the construction of the Spanish guitar is due for innovation: detachable neck and titanium truss rod
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2021 16:10:38
 
Echi

 

Posts: 939
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

quote:

If you saw off the heel I could see how the back and soundboard would still lock the 2 ribs in, but would think that if glue wasn’t used in the heel joint, the ends of each side might spring out..? I guess you could just glue and clamp them flush in this case and re attach the heel?

Well, they shouldn't spring out as the sides are glued to back and top and their shape is definitely stable.
The way to join the neck back has to be invented: I would make a tenon joint: other people may make a dovetail joint or just spines/bolts.
You may see in the video of Marshall Bruné how they do it.

To remove the back is the last way I would do the job really.
It's very complicate to do it properly and anyway you'd have glue again the back correcting the wrong neck angle and making new bindings/ touch up the finishing etc.
BTW, a bent neck is a different matter than a wrong neck angle. If a neck is bent you have somehow to make it straight, either with heat or (in case it doesn't work) by planing down the fretboard; if there is no room for that you have to remove the fretboard, route a channel to insert a carbon fibre rod and glue a new fretboard. I did the last procedure a year ago and it went through. It was a pain in the neck though.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2021 17:50:14
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I owned a 1958 Ramirez which had a slightly bowed neck and a repairman used a heated tool which fixed the problem.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2021 22:17:07
 
ernandez R

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

One of the luthiers over at the Delcamp recently started a thread about how he fixes a over bowed neck by pulling the frets, routing out a channel and laying in a CF bar then fitting a new matching strip of fretboard material then refretting. Somthing like that.

Photoes etc: https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=143683

Seems like an easy enough repair for even the cheapest repair and to be honest see,s a good compromise for the quality/historic guitar?

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2021 1:37:06
 
Edris

 

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 23 2021
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

If the neck is straight, but the neck has sunk. Is there any other way around it without removing the back?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2021 2:40:41
 
Echi

 

Posts: 939
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

quote:

I owned a 1958 Ramirez which had a slightly bowed neck and a repairman used a heated tool which fixed the problem.
ideally this is the best way to do it: I saw the pictures of this method done with a kind of heated alluminum clamp, quite sturdy, long as the fretboard.
I have been told that this method doesn’t work with all the bent necks though; Also, at times it may work just for a while.

@ ernandez: I too saw the method used by Jim Frieson (which entails to route a channel through the fretboard, put a Carbon fibre rod and close it with a matching wood) but I think it may work if the damage is not yet evident.

@edris: I don’t understand what you mean with sunk neck.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2021 8:56:40
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 727
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Echi

Some years I travelled quite a distance to look at an old Conde which was for sale at a general auction. I took a mirror with me in case I felt the need to explore inside the box. There I found a purpose made prop that connected the harmonic bar behind the sound hole (nearest the neck) with the back brace directly opposite. I presume that this was an attempt of alter/correct the geometry of the guitar. Has anyone seen this on another guitar?

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2021 11:55:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13003
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Echi

quote:

edris: I don’t understand what you mean with sunk neck.


Many years ago my luthier friend addressed this problem with a cheap guitar by over humidifying the guitar, then placing these 2 little basketballs in the sound hole on either side of the neck joint, and inflated them slowly with air until the sunk sound board leveled out, which kicked the neck angle back slightly. After allowing the guitar to dry to normal humidity levels he let the air out of the balls and removed them. The soundboard retained its shape for several weeks but eventually sunk again. He concluded that it might be possible to reshape a soundboard this way but it would require longer time and perhaps constant perfect humidity conditions. In the end it seems this issue is a long term problem that must be dealt with as described by others….planning the neck or reinforcing it or bending it, or simply re-doing the neck angle from the start.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2021 12:50:46
 
Echi

 

Posts: 939
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

Well, if I understand correctly, you mean the top collapsing where there is the upper harmonic/transverse bar, causing a depression of the top and a tilt of the neck.
If this is the case, the problem is in the upper harmonic bar. As Robje said, you can try to replace or enforce that strut in many ways: I saw a Reyes (for sale) with a thick 2nd transverse bar glued just aside the old one in order to pop the top up to his original geometry.
The other way (usually attributed to Yuris Zeltins as he fixed this way some Rodriguez guitars) is to place a floating transverse bar under the old one to push it up.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2021 14:01:00
 
Edris

 

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 23 2021
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Echi

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I'll have a luthier take a look. Many thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2021 3:00:40
 
Edris

 

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 23 2021
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Ricardo

Appreciate your wisdom...always maestro!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2021 3:01:41
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 444
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Echi

Now tempted to buy a knackered guitar just to see if putting a jack between the base of the Spanish heel and the bar would work. (This post is is brought to you based on alcohol and ignorance).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2021 19:16:02
 
bahen

Posts: 314
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

Getting back to the music, how is the musicality? Has it lost some of its musical ability?


It's honestly excellent. Slightly high action for a flamenco guitar, but it's not really an issue (and no issue at all with a capo). I do sometimes feel that it is a little too loud, and the sound sustains more than I would like, but it's an instrument with significant sentimental appeal for me, so the issues I'm describing are more affectionate quirks that I have to tame, so to speak, to get the guitar to shine. I think dropping to a lower tension string set would resolve the excessive volume issues, and it's been something I've been meaning to do for years (but keep forgetting about every time I order new strings)!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2021 11:56:44
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to bahen

Sounds like you have a nice guitar..... would it be possible for us to listen to you play it?

Sometimes it's just a matter of getting used to the changes.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2021 18:24:30
 
bahen

Posts: 314
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: Extra hard tension composite str... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

That's kind, many thanks. I'll try to post a video one of these days.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2021 15:36:43
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