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zata

Posts: 658
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

requesting input 

I'm amazed at the long conversation my most recent article at Expoflamenco triggered.

I would very much be interested to know what topics people would like to read about. There are so many options, I don't know what's most important....flamenco trends, history, biographies, show reviews, interviews, general musings...

Writing for Expoflamenco is a big responsibility, as well as privilege. Please make suggestions.

(This was the message I thought had disappeared...:-P )

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2021 15:00:42
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1627
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to zata

quote:

I'm amazed at the long conversation my most recent article at Expoflamenco triggered.

Cual de las muchas?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2021 16:47:57
 
Escribano

Posts: 6142
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: requesting input (in reply to zata

I would be interested in the popularity, or otherwise, of flamenco in its home. It wasn't very easy to find flamenco when I lived there, aside from fiestas, tablaos and impromptus in Granada city. Village folk didn't seem to care for it very much.

Is it still alive in the provinces and where?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2021 17:03:57
 
Piwin

Posts: 3162
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to zata

It was an interesting topic, and a good article. I'm glad ViejoArmargo posted it here .

Dunno what to suggest. Like you said, there's just so much. One thing that caught my attention in that thread was when Ricardo said this:

quote:

I agree that cante has suffered but that is the fault of the BAILE forcing orthodoxy and squareness that phased out the variety of cante that once existed, one letra at a time


I don't know whether that's a topic that would be of interest to people. It's not something I had really thought about. I had some sense that baile had phased out certain things like medio compas, perhaps imposed a change in standard tempo for certain forms, made things more cuadrado, etc. but I hadn't thought about it having quite the influence on cante that Ricardo's post suggests. So, questions that come to mind for me would be things like: was there ever a time when it was possible for dancers to adapt to this variety of cante, or was it always a sort of zero-sum game, i.e. if we sing this, you can't dance; if you dance, we can't sing this?

The answer to that would have implications on what can be done today to reintroduce that variety in cante, at least in the commercial arena. Because if it is a zero-sum game, there's not much to be done, except perhaps incorporate more non-dance parts in baile-driven shows, during which a wider variety of cante could be explored. On the other hand, if it's not a zero-sum game, then there could be ways to teach baile different, such that it would be easier to adapt to a wider variety of cante.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. Not sure any of that made sense

@Morante This one I believe: https://www.expoflamenco.com/en/estela-flamenca/flamenco-parental-supervision-advised

It was the one in the thread "Is there hope for flamenco outside Andalucia"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2021 17:11:37
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to zata

The status quo of flamenco in Andalucia. A covid-corrected view on that matter would be great.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 12:49:04
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to zata

Palmas? No thanks. Don't want to hear that noisy crap. Most people would think that way including me.



Another request is palmas. The role of palmas in flamenco in particular in flamenco guitar playing. The same goes for knuckles knocking on a table for example during cante accompaniment.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 13:03:47
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Palmas? No thanks. Don't want to hear that noisy crap. Most people would think that way including me. The role of palmas in flamenco in particular in flamenco guitar playing. The same goes for knuckles knocking on a table for example during cante accompaniment.

Are you serious?? Have you ever tried doing contra-tiempo? Have you ever sat in a room where skillfully executed palmas get the air moving from all directions and build excitement?

Am I missing something here?

But, if you’re serious, to be helpful, if you don’t ‘get’ palmas you have to start to re-evaluate your relationship with flamenco, IMO, because you are cutting out an enormous part of the cultural history of its development by ignoring this. This is how the children are initially taught, FFS.

To consider the question about the role of palmas in flamenco guitar playing, the first point is flamenco isn’t just about guitar. This discussion happens all the time on here. But, to be clear, palmas preceded guitars, flamenco can exist without guitars, sorry to say. There’s a lot of aficionados who aren’t that interested in simply solo guitar flamenco, too. It may be your love, but that doesn’t mean it’s what most people feel, contrary to your generalization.

To be fair, I’m not a fan of too much tacon in recorded music, I often skip over those pieces. But, yeah, you got to rethink this palmas stance, I think. Also, maybe don’t be so darned confrontational so much, I realize half the time it’s just in fun, but poking at someone who hasn’t been here in a long time is a bit much. Zata has more first hand knowledge about flamenco in her little finger than most of us will be able to acquire in a lifetime. Show some respect, please.

Your first request makes sense and is a good idea, then you go on with this stuff. Geeez.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 14:23:55
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to RobF

quote:

Am I missing something here?

You misunderstood my post. My last 2 sentences are now placed under that youtube video. I added one sentence to emphasize my request.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 15:01:46
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: requesting input (in reply to RobF

quote:

Are you serious??


Either he hasn’t taken his meds or he never uses a metronome to practice. Considering certain rhythm discussions previous, I assume the later.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 15:17:18
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to devilhand

quote:

You misunderstood my post. My last 2 sentences are now placed under that youtube video. I added one sentence to emphasize my request.

OK, thanks. That is a lot more clear now. It’s all good.

I guess part of my point is, while I only know Zata from reading old posts from before I was a member, it would be great if she started engaging in some of the discussions here, so I hope we don’t discourage her with our looniness.

Secondly, I think it is a good request. Sometimes it’s hard to appreciate how electric the air can get in a room when it all comes together and the palmas, cante, baile, and guitar all lock into sync, and start feeding off each other. It doesn’t really come across that well on recorded music or even in some concerts, where the level of perfection is so high that audience expectations can sometimes only be satisfied through pyrotechnical displays. It’s different, is all I can say.

Any rate, it’s just a misunderstanding and all is good. Olé.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 15:52:10
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to devilhand

OK, so here’s an example of what I mean. I hope the club that owns the Facebook page doesn’t object to my linking.

This is probably taken after hours, it’s not really a show, and I’m not posting this as something to be critiqued, this is just an example...it’s a little raw, but that’s kind of my point...

Check out the palmas, how they participate in the music, especially how they come in and support the guitarist during his break. That’s the “audience”. It may not be perfect, but it shows how a room can start to feel when everyone is part of it, there is no separation between audience and performer, it’s more of a whole synergistic experience for all. It’s the spontaneity that fuels the energy.

https://www.facebook.com/josemiguel.tavora.9/videos/271955963764670
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 16:29:17
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1627
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to RobF

¡Ole! Rob. that is what I understand as flamenco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 17:02:40
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1627
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to Morante

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 17:19:31
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: requesting input (in reply to Morante



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 18:28:40
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1627
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to Ricardo

¡¡Ole mi arma!! y uno de mi tocaores favoritos, Manolo Dominguez
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 19:07:11
 
Brendan

Posts: 223
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to zata

That remark of PdL’s about Lorca is intriguing. I wonder whether Lorca’s peculiar romantic intellectual view of cante jondo is all that closely related to the burlesque-with-stamping image of flamenco shows demonstrated in the newspaper cuttings. After all, his interest was in the letras, but as you say, singing isn’t the thing in shows tuned for tourists.

Anyway, there may be an article waiting to be written about the effect of Lorca’s patronage and influence on flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 9:48:43
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to Brendan

quote:

singing isn’t the thing in shows tuned for tourists.

So is palmas. But I think as long as the whole program isn't full of extreme palmas as shown in youtube video above, tourists will go there next time again. Otherwise it will remain a once in a lifetime experience.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 11:12:25
 
ric

 

Posts: 69
Joined: Dec. 27 2010
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to zata

My girlfriend used to dance Kathak in India, and from her (and others) experience there is a male hierarchy inherent in many dance practices where the (male) teacher/guru abuses his power over others. A lot of abuse (sexual and otherwise) goes unreported or rarely talked about.
I don't know how this would relate to flamenco in general, but to comment on how the aspiring professional dancer copes with this situation, would be interesting and eye opening.
Another subject, that parallels this is the sense of jealousy, cattiness, and mean spiritedness (mainly woman to woman) in the world of dance, that at times can destroy an aspiring artists desire to create and love the art form.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 14:12:35
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to ric

quote:

My girlfriend used to dance Kathak in India, and from her (and others) experience there is a male hierarchy inherent in many dance practices where the (male) teacher/guru abuses his power over others. A lot of abuse (sexual and otherwise) goes unreported or rarely talked about.

I don't think what you mentioned here is common in western world. India is a not a good example here judging from the fact that... You'll find it on the internet.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 15:22:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: requesting input (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

singing isn’t the thing in shows tuned for tourists.

So is palmas. But I think as long as the whole program isn't full of extreme palmas as shown in youtube video above, tourists will go there next time again. Otherwise it will remain a once in a lifetime experience.


I honestly thought you were joking before, but now I realize that you just didn’t take your meds.

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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 16:22:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: requesting input (in reply to Brendan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brendan

That remark of PdL’s about Lorca is intriguing. I wonder whether Lorca’s peculiar romantic intellectual view of cante jondo is all that closely related to the burlesque-with-stamping image of flamenco shows demonstrated in the newspaper cuttings. After all, his interest was in the letras, but as you say, singing isn’t the thing in shows tuned for tourists.

Anyway, there may be an article waiting to be written about the effect of Lorca’s patronage and influence on flamenco.




English subtitles


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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 16:31:39
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I honestly thought you were joking before, but now I realize that you just didn’t take your meds.

I already gave my opinion about palmas. I was not joking before. How about you explain here the role of palmas in flamenco so that I can look at it from the different angle?

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 16:42:18
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1627
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to Brendan

Lorca knew very little about flamenco. What little he knew he learned from De Falla, who also knew very little. The famous concourso de 1922 was just an example of the ricos slumming. That they banned professional cantaores and invited Segovia speaks volumes.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 17:00:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: requesting input (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

I honestly thought you were joking before, but now I realize that you just didn’t take your meds.

I already gave my opinion about palmas. I was not joking before. How about you explain here the role of palmas in flamenco so that I can look at it from the different angle?


It is the basis of compas. What you are saying is like “I love that rock band and several others in a similar style...but I can’t stand those annoying drums. How could anybody stand that noise for too long?”.

Get it? It is beyond ridiculous.

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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 17:01:38
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I honestly thought you were joking before


The guy never jokes and, based on some early comments to me and Piwin joking around, appears to be uncomfortable with humour in general. Perplexing character..

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 17:16:33
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1627
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to devilhand

quote:

How about you explain here the role of palmas in flamenco so that I can look at it from the different angle?




Intentalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 17:32:21
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

It is the basis of compas. What you are saying is like “I love that rock band and several others in a similar style...but I can’t stand those annoying drums. How could anybody stand that noise for too long?”.

Get it? It is beyond ridiculous.

Nothing against one or two palmeros clapping a simple rhythm. When there are more than that that's beyond ridiculious from a tocaors perspective. Your youtube video above is a good example. Makes no sense to play guitar there. As I wrote above tourists can enjoy it once. But I doubt they want to experience it once again.

Btw, I've never seen a band with a bunch of drummers. All I can say is too many cooks spoil the soup.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2021 9:59:23
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to zata





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2021 13:29:46
 
RobF

 

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[Deleted] 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2021 13:50:40
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: requesting input (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Nothing against one or two palmeros clapping a simple rhythm. When there are more than that that's beyond ridiculious from a tocaors perspective. Your youtube video above is a good example. Makes no sense to play guitar there. As I wrote above tourists can enjoy it once. But I doubt they want to experience it once again.

Btw, I've never seen a band with a bunch of drummers. All I can say is too many cooks spoil the soup.


Just watch the whole thing. If you don't get it, you don't get it.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2021 19:53:24
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