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Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Terms - modal vs tonal, color v... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I read on the foro according to you D# flamenco is por David Serva. Who's David Serva? When you think there's no flamenco key named after Paco. It's a blasphemy.
American David Jones appears to be the first flamenco artist to compose for and use that key in the latec70s. It took time to assimilate but by the late 90s almost all tocares had developed the key for various palos. Paco has never introduced a brand new key center, nor has any other except for montoya, Velez, Serva, cañizares...if you count open tunings and non specific palos, Esteban sanlucar, nuñez, a few others maybe.
RE: Terms - modal vs tonal, color v... (in reply to joevidetto)
very interesting discussion here.
I see a primarily modal field that one can return to following brief functional forays based upon pivot points as outlined (circle of fifths as augmented here plus some observations: the VII and II are a relative major/minor pair around our tonic, the IV is also minor and can be a VII for a next, secondary dominants from our andalusian cadence provide yet more functional pivots, etc...) and that the primarily modal emphasis is what is felt when we return to phrygian roots. These people may have absorbed all the trends in european music for centuries, but they stayed true to their core modal nature.
modal ladders consisting of the same notes, as Ricardo pointed out (root phrygian uses the same notes as II lydian, or VII dorian) and the elaboration of these hopefully emphasizing the movement being traced underneath, effectively making a jungle gym structure one can move around inside. One is always free to alter notes, borrow, chromaticism, etc for emotional or coloring reasons (reminding of a similiar maqam or recontextualizing an earlier theme in a different harmonic environment)
Cejilla bringing shapes anywhere (reasonably low) on the parilla, (open strings with partial barres, etc.. characteristic flavors available in different keys)
Wildcard-characters are a term from programming, and it's clear that interval relationship are preserved across musical keys so it's better to use interval notation I, II, III, IV, V, VI... but one has to be referring to a specific diatonic system when doing so, and we imply Do or C or ionian as a basis. Interesting as any diatonic system or scale has it's modes, and the interesting ways in which they interconnect... (why is the II or lydian step in flamenco the most-frequently-elaborated here, in terms of melodic-minor and superlocrian in particular?)
Of note is the "function" provided by the II lydian or VII dorian, which seems to mimic "dominant function" (a stack (not chord lol) a half-step away sharing less notes, 2 families based upon shared notes) as is said: modal tonic chords = I III VI modal cadence chords = II IV V VII
but ultimately this modified circle of fifths is the best diagram to interleave more rings upon given our current definition of modes and our tempered 12 tone system.
I'm very glad to see such a substantive and informative discussion here. I'm learning a lot from this thread.
Ricardo, why do you consider the half-diminished VII separately from the 6 others? I think you were describing "voice leading" before when discussing the dominant 7 chord and it's constituent tritone or?
anyone: take any 2 strings of your instrument tuned in 4ths (not the G and B string pair, lol) and fret them as such --X -X-
then move to -X- --X
that's the heart of functional music right there.
btw, if anyone wants a laugh at overengineering, look at all the ridiculous mental gymnastics needed to explain a simple chromatic movement WRT to The Neapolitan Chord...I mention that to say that music is expression and art and often comes from subconscious places and is influenced by feelings and other subjectivity. theoretical analysis is something else, intended to capture the structural essence of something... I suppose it's a bit like being a living being vs an anatomy course.
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Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Terms - modal vs tonal, color v... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
modal tonic chords = I III VI modal cadence chords = II IV V VII
Using Romans all upper case as nothing more than chord scale roots can lead to confusions when mixing the concept of tonic function. I realize that maybe not everybody learned the Weber method of analysis the way I did, but it is just jarring to see them used “wrongly”. Lots of people are doing it I know.
III would not be a “tonic” chord in my mind. Most often in flamenco (the ONLY Music on earth that would justify a need to use Romans on the phrygian scale to describe harmonic functions), the III chord is functioning as V7/VI...and when it is not, it is then functioning the same as VII in a minor key. As you probably know that is sometimes viewed as “cadence chord” or Dominant. G7-Am in other words is accepted by many as a weak cadence of sorts. In the major key it is the basis of tonal music. In the minor key it would also need be described MORE often as V7/III. Going back to flamenco, when it is not actually resolving to VI, it is of course serving as an “away chord from tonic”, like IV and V do in major...in fact, for phrygian I see their literal roles reversed...C7-Bb-F is V-IV-I in major, but phrygian as III-II-I, the Bb is dominant function INSTEAD of C7.
So I say you can swap your III and your iv....because iv does not function to resolve anywhere in flamenco. It does have a tonic function often and that is why there is ambiguity between “key of D minor and por medio”. This is where doing the Romans correctly becomes real important. In solea say, tonic A chord is functioning as V7/iv that resolves or tonicizes iv. Most theorists would view the first sung line of solea to justify that iv is ACTUALLY tonic of the whole form. We flamencos know that is wrong, but regardless, iv definitely has TONIC function vs cadential function in flamenco. I know full well in the A major key, the minor iv-I is a nice plagal cadence, but in the flamenco phrygian forms, this thing is NOT used, or rather, it is deliberately avoided....in order to not reinforce the ambiguity of relative minor and the half cadence.
So last thing, the lydian pull in flamenco keys. I explained in a different thread, the v chord in phrygian is m7b5, so we alter it just like we do for minor key v chord, by raise the third degree making the same type of lower leading tone to tonic. E7b5 for example. The actual move to tonic A is kind of weak because of b5. The altered dominant scale is E super loc or 7th mode of F melodic minor. The tritone sub of E7 is Bb7...F melodic minor from Bb is Bb LYDIAN DOMINANT...the stronger resolution to A, and also the tonal harmony justification of the tonicization of A and why we get to have a “modal key” in the first place. In relative minor this is a half cadence concept and described as Augmented6th chords due to spelling the leading tone G#. So they way I think of it is phrygian dominant is to minor key as lydian dominant is to phrygian key.
About viidim chord in major...as I explained, it need not be part of a family of related 6 chords viewed as one key center via key signature (not talking voice leading or even key names, but simply chord “family”) because it does that very thing ON ITS OWN. In other words if you have a chord, major or minor, you need to see how it relates to know your key signature. But if you see a diminished chord (spelled correctly) you already KNOW the key center from the single chord.
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Terms - modal vs tonal, color v... (in reply to Beni2)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Beni2
Does anyone know when D, "por abajo" was first used?
Great question. As the key center means the two open E strings are lost in any voicing, I assume the earliest uses required drop D. Those “Zambra” guitar solos, danza mora type things first come to mind. As I search backward historically in my mind I can only think of Solo Quiero caminar as a traditional palo, but for sure something was done before that. Now I have to dig.
RE: Terms - modal vs tonal, color v... (in reply to Ricardo)
Thank you, Ricardo, for the explanation.
quote:
So they way I think of it is phrygian dominant is to minor key as lydian dominant is to phrygian key.
About viidim chord in major...as I explained, it need not be part of a family of related 6 chords viewed as one key center via key signature (not talking voice leading or even key names, but simply chord “family”) because it does that very thing ON ITS OWN. In other words if you have a chord, major or minor, you need to see how it relates to know your key signature. But if you see a diminished chord (spelled correctly) you already KNOW the key center from the single chord.
first line here, makes total sense. this last part is interesting, and I'll have to play with that a bit. How do you account for our tonic with a 2b or 9b being very nearly a diminished chord? (missing the 7b only)
Now Brendan stated before:
quote:
My thoughts don’t amount to much, but since you ask: I don’t think about playing scales over chords at all. That’s not really how flamenco works. In fandangos, it makes sense to say that the estribillos are modal while the sung verses are tonal, as long as you don’t think of ‘modal’ as an invitation to start wondering how you would solo over those changes.
Look at this little falseta por bulerías by Paco Cepero. You won’t understand what is going on by asking ‘Which scale was he noodling in over those chords?’ or ‘What mode is this?’. The chords written there are Claude Worms’ attempt to infer harmony from melody, they’re not played. The melody isn’t played ‘over’ them. You can think of the Gb and the Eb as ‘out’ notes if you like, though that does raise the unhelpful question ‘out of what?’ I have no idea what Cepero was thinking in creating this falseta, but I understand it in terms of a harmonic journey. I don’t buy Worms’ first chord—that first stack looks like D major to me! And so the chord implied by the whole first measure is D7(b9). If you think of the second measure as Gm7, a familiar pattern emerges that explains the sense of movement. Cepero parachutes us in to a harmonic location some way from the home chord and the charm of it is how he manages the journey home.
So the Gb (or if I’m right, F#) isn’t an ‘out’ note made palatable by clever jazzy harmonisation, nor is it ‘colour’. It’s part of a functional secondary dominant that invites movement to Gm7.
This is so spot on, in terms of genetic analysis post-mortem upon Hercules corpse "ah yes, divine ADN, spawn of Hera, would explain the physical strength etc." vs encountering the actual Hercules in a pub brawl etc.
we could have a contest: "fit a harmonic movement under this melody"
this is quite though provoking.
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RE: Terms - modal vs tonal, color v... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Does anyone know when D, "por abajo" was first used?
quote:
As I search backward historically in my mind I can only think of Solo Quiero caminar as a traditional palo, but for sure something was done before that. Now I have to dig.
RE: Terms - modal vs tonal, color v... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
You haven't heard of wildcard characters? I'm aware of the fact that flamenco keys based on Phrygian are limited. A-Z doesn't mean all 26 letters from A to Z. A-Z is used as a wildcard character to imply words starting with any letter. What I meant by por A-Z was 7 or 8 words that come after por.
A-Z means "everything", deriving from all the letters of the alphabet, literally every letter "from A-Z". So a list of flamenco palos called "The A-Z of flamenco palos" would start with Alboreas and list everything ending with Zorongo.
The other common use of "A-Z" is a street map with ALL of the streets indexed alphabetically, again, from A-Z.
Wildcard derives from card playing, where a card, usually a joker, can be used to substitute for any other card. I assume other uses (such as in sports competitions, where it means an outsider or unknown or unproven contestant or team) are derived from this (the clue is in the name - wild CARD).
I didn't understand your use of either of these terms.
For sure you can decide that words mean whatever you want, but don't expect anyone else to understand what you're talking about...
....so this friend of ours got a new pet, a dog. We went to see her a some time after. The conversation went something like this: Me: "How's it going with the new pet?" Her: "Great, I love going dogging" We burst out laughing. Her: "What's funny, why are you laughing?" Me: "Well, you do know what "dogging" means, don't you?" Her: "Yes, it means taking your dog for a walk" Me: "Er... no, it actually means something else..." Her: "Well, that's what it means to me" Me: "okaaayyy......"
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Terms - modal vs tonal, color v... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
How do you account for our tonic with a 2b or 9b being very nearly a diminished chord? (missing the 7b only)
In the traditional repertoire this was not typically done as a resolution...only the stable triad would end the palo, and even most phrases. The flat 9 comes in to pull forward, same with the 7th. Finally Niño ricardo ended Taranta with dissonance unlike montoya, and obviously that caught on as acceptable for other forms occasionally. PDL didn’t do that for buleria until the 70s and I think vicente was the first to end solea on that chord.
You can see an equivalent thing in major key like alegrias...often the 6th is added to tonic as a foward driving tension, but they never end the song on that tense voicing. Minor key bulerias same deal with the flat 6
RE: Terms - modal vs tonal, color v... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
The flat 9 comes in to pull forward, same with the 7th
excellent explanation. thank you. "movement". it makes total sense.
(can I paraphrase it as: borrowed notes from the stack in front or behind depending upon rhythmic placement "functioning" in a similar way to the dominant/tonic pump ?)
you know your stuff, Ricardo. that much is clear, regardless of our long-running differences of opinion on other matters, lol...let it never be said that Ricardo got lost in theoretical details and forgot the main story.
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