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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to kitarist)
Nice, thanx for making this up, it's the kind of tool my mind likes to have handy.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to kitarist)
Well, I hope it was at least something witty. Or a praise? There is even a flamenco Tolkien ring/circle now.. in addition to the two versions of the circle of fifths above that
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to kitarist)
haha, it was just a dumb meme.
But you certainly deserve the praise!
I tried printing it out only to realise I was out of toner and everything came out in shades of pink lol. Thanks for making that. Drinks are on me if ever you make you way over to Spain after this pandemic.
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
the incidental Tolkien flamenco ring that I made off of Mark's picture
No idea where I found that. I was looking up the origin/invention of the circle of fifths or something, maybe I was looking for an arty print of the circle to stick on the wall, can't remember, anyway I came across that Tolkien ring of fifths and also the ones on the wiki page like Heinichen's musical circle and Nikolay Diletsky's circle of fifths. Also this one:
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
I tried printing it out only to realise I was out of toner and everything came out in shades of pink lol. Thanks for making that. Drinks are on me if ever you make you way over to Spain after this pandemic.
Deal
I will post the pdfs now that it seems the design has been finalized. Stay tuned..
The wheel is drawn on a 10 x 10 inch canvas, so either print it on paper with narrower side >=10 inches (e.g. 11x17 or A3), or use the 'shrink oversized pages' option.
The book version is on a 7.5 x 10 inch canvas, so printing it on a landscape letter (8.5x11) or A4 is fine without shrinking.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
the incidental Tolkien flamenco ring that I made off of Mark's picture
No idea where I found that. I was looking up the origin/invention of the circle of fifths or something, maybe I was looking for an arty print of the circle to stick on the wall, can't remember, anyway I came across that Tolkien ring of fifths and also the ones on the wiki page like Heinichen's musical circle and Nikolay Diletsky's circle of fifths. Also this one:
I love using the “H” key.
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Piwin)
The earliest circle in guitar circles. This was a practical circle for accompanying songs and dances in the late Renaissance and into the late Baroque (ca. 1586 - 1750) in all keys.
This is a cicrle of fourths. Top half represents major keys in tab from E to Cb. Because it is abstract, the enharmonic keys are implied. It is not really a theoretical tool like the circle of fifths. Cool nonetheless.
[E-A-D-G-C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-Cb]
On the bottom half from the far right, Em-Am-etc.
Baroque guitarists invented or discovered many of the building blocks that guitarists of all backgrounds use today. Three chord rock? That's a Spanish Baroque guitarist thing...sort of.
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
Well, aren't you a nice little consumer I am afraid all you get is the incidental Tolkien flamenco ring that I made off of Mark's picture
Is there any reason for Do mayor, La menor and Mi flamenco in the case of C major? For me they're redundant making the circle of fifths look like there's too much going on. Markindigo's version looks well organized and more superior. Only por arriba etc. are missing.
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Is there any reason for Do mayor, La menor and Mi flamenco in the case of C major? For me they're redundant making the circle of fifths look like there's too much going on.
They are Spanish - if/when you take lessons in Spain you will need to know the Spanish terms for things.
quote:
Markindigo's version looks well organized and more superior.
It's not "my" chart, it's something I found on the interweb while looking for something else, I thought it was funny, and posted it as a JOKE!
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Beni2)
quote:
Baroque guitarists invented or discovered many of the building blocks that guitarists of all backgrounds use today. Three chord rock? That's a Spanish Baroque guitarist thing...sort of.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
Well, aren't you a nice little consumer I am afraid all you get is the incidental Tolkien flamenco ring that I made off of Mark's picture
Is there any reason for Do mayor, La menor and Mi flamenco in the case of C major? For me they're redundant making the circle of fifths look like there's too much going on. Markindigo's version looks well organized and more superior. Only por arriba etc. are missing.
I will repeat. Get a freakin pencil and paper and make your OWN circle. You will learn more by doing so.
Mark Indigo asked: Isn't "Hijaz" a Middle Eastern/Arabic Maquam? Do they have harmony and chords?
Traditional Arab and Turkish music is purely modal, with no chords, but from the mid-1800s related forms of Eastern European music were adding chords to melodies based on these modes, and this practice became common from the early 1900s in various kinds of Balkan, Eastern European, and Turkish urban music, including rebetika, klezmer, on down to Serbian turbo-folk etc. The structural affinities with flamenco harmony are obvious, and I have argued that they derive from related historical conditions, especially a natural way of harmonizing Hijaz-type modes used in predecessors to these musics. (Ricardo didn't agree with me.) I published an article on this 30 years ago. "Modal Harmony in Andalusian, Eastern European, and Turkish Syncretic Musics." If anyone is interested, here's the link: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/jj_pubs/314/
You were invoking post equal temperament (west) fusion with older modal systems (east) in a conversation where I was trying to explain how flamenco is explained perfectly fine using western only viewing lens as a way to translate or “fix” the problems you had correctly noticed in flamencology literature. I had never said such fusions never took place, I had explicitly asked to set those aside along with certain other things. I was pointing out that these fusions are looked at as “problematic” from the point of view of eastern modal purists, for good reason. Simply put “modality” doesnt’ happen on western instruments, but there are tricks to pretend it does.
Let me put it this way...once you are allowing chords to directly screw up what were once sweet tuned modal forms (where micro tones are used and distinguished very specifically) then you can go ahead and talk “rock guitar magazine speak” to describe the music going on...ie mix up jazz and classical terminology to describe the “cool” stuff going on, that would make many modal music gurus cringe.
Ok I read your article. It does a great job illustrating how the east west fusion took place with tons of great examples. Also you show with fandangos how functioning harmony can work in music that is ultimately NOT in the major or minor western keys, plus you show the concept of modulation to keys that are “not tonic”. Trying to remember who was who during some arguments earlier (I think Mavi wanted to argue that modulation does occur in proper modal music and deeper look at makkam practice left me thinking makkams are not actually modes, but rather, melodic devices with specific rules of usage), but I think your point was that harmonic function does occur without V-i being invoked. Right? Well....
The thing is I am not seeing any contradiction to that reality in your examples. I did see you claim there is a disappearance of certain makkams that appear less chord friendly, as the modern trend to using “western chords” to accompany once modal songs gains popularity through time...that ties into what I said about modal purists not liking the idea about fusion...in fact you admit it is killing the modal traditions. Good. But you conclude that the western system does not get to claim exclusive rights to harmonic function (lets say chord usage for now regardless of the V-I issue), thanks to these “fusions” that have since taken place. Can’t you see it is the West “eating up”, and I mean that negatively, the modal music of the past?
I hope you can because these eastern musicians that are dealing with creating new forms are “reinventing the wheel” so to speak...they are headed toward the same conclusion JS Bach already had...all this modal ambiguity goes bye bye once we pull in the V-I...so they ended up DUMPING ALL the modes, not just one makkam at a time, in favor of a more “complete” system. Do you get me? The fusions (and you can include flamenco if you want) that adhere to ancient melody “types” but pretend to be modal, are in this wishy washy state of evolution. What Bach did is take ancient modal melodies, lets call it Gregorian chant for now, and REAHARMONIZED them...basically the same concept we are discussing, but he did so with Tonal Harmonic function. That is why those “chorales”, whose melodies he did NOT compose, he composed the counter melodies that create tonal harmony, are THE MODEL we use specifically to LEARN tonal harmony in school. While along the way during the evolution we might love the modal sounding I V vi IV to the point of every favorite song uses it, parallel 5th are awesome etc, it doesn’t change the fact it is NOT FUNCTIONING, yet it is pointing us in that direction vs static drones.
I am not saying your conclusion is “wrong” it is just that you might believe “chords” harmonizing a melody are “New” because of Turkish pop or whatever and it retains “east flavor” without sounding like baroque music. I get it, but it is not “New” or examplary of something “different than” what you said was done in the renaissance etc. It is the same darn thing where deeper concept of harmony is “eating” or taking over the simpler old view, and at the same huge cost (tuning). Anyway, I still very much like your article and what it is pointing out to folks that might not have heard that stuff, or heard it and were confused. I did find a couple of mistakes or perhaps things that could have been made more clear.
Example 3 is only a 6 note melody, so it is hard to justify things like “dorian type melody” because that missing note is the one that defines the difference between the mode Dorian or Aeolian. Unless you alter your G chord to G7 for example... anyway example 4, you first talk about a phrygian progression (by Romans i iv III II vii) as being sort of cadential, but your example imposes a change of scale with the G chord...there is no melodic note that is B natural so my first thought is that this chord is an error, or worse, an imposition on the phrygian natural melody. G minor appears to clear things up as it should. But no example with your specific chord progression was odd after you made a point about it. Again, what was the basis of the G chord there? At glance it seems ii-V-I in C is the point, a smart guy forcing tonal function over a modal melody (JS Bach?). Of course it is an excerpt. Last, example 7 had me raise an eyebrow as I am sure the second part is written in the WRONG CLEFF. It should be bass clef, as per chords...and there you claimed no “cadence” going on, but this is not true IMO. F minor starts as i, then V comes in using F melodic minor #4 (V), giving Arabic flavor, but the G chord is straight V7-i in C minor (V7/v), complete with change of scale as is done in tonal harmony practices. Again, I would agree that the tonal function is being imposed on the modal melody, sure, but it is still cadencing to my ear. (I would use 4 flats to better represent the tonal functions, but again this is an excerpt).
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Piwin)
Ricardo, I am of course gratified that you not only read my article, but also read it so closely. In academic publishing one often doesn’t get any feedback at all (except from reviewers), and especially when an article like this is technical it may have a very limited readership indeed. And then as you shrewdly noticed, this one has some annoying errors which crept into the notations (I think I was in India when the proofs were sent to me, I couldn’t access the originals, or even concentrate on it. Example 4, yes, that G chord shouldn’t be there, though the rest is OK – main point is the use of the minor VII chord, like in flamenco Phrygian. Example 7, I’d have to turn my place upside down to find that one…)
As you note, I’m not making a value judgment about these fusions of chords and modal traditions. Obviously, when chords are added, things are lost—the beauty that can come with pure modality, and neutral/microtonal intervals (whatever we call them), all sorts of nuances etc. But we like flamenco, right? The “wishy washy state of evolution” has its own beauty, charm, flavor, integrity.
Speaking of things getting lost when absorbed into Western common-practice harmony, I wrote another (equally dry) article about what I call dual tonicity (can send link if interested; “From Scarlatti to ‘Guantanamera’: Dual Tonicity in Spanish and Latin American Musics”). I’m sure you know these baroque fandangos of Soler, Scarlatti, Santiago de Murcia and a few others, that oscillate between D minor and A, and end on the A. This sort of thing is a big tradition stretching into various Latin American musics. E.g., “Guantanamera” – C-F-G C-F-G etc and (properly) ends on G, not C. (Cf Cuban punto, C-F-G, all cadences are on the G; or música llanera [joropo etc]—same, whether major or minor). So the musicologists say these “end on the dominant.” But they are wrong, it is not a tonic-dominant polarity, but an oscillation between two tonal centers of relatively equal weight. Definitely “wishy washy.” Then what happens is, as you note, the Western common practice “eats up” these distinctive irregularities, that had their own charm, and something gets lost. So Mozart and Boccherini—who were fully in the Western tradition--end their fandangos on the D minor, and non-Cuban bands end “Guantanamera” on C, in what a Cuban I knew called “the gringo way of ending it.”
For me, Peteneras has a bit of that ambiguity. If played por arriba, is the tonic A minor, or E Phrygian?
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Steelhead)
quote:
For me, Peteneras has a bit of that ambiguity. If played por arriba, is the tonic A minor, or E Phrygian?
Sure but without evoking the “p” word, the wishy washy state of flamenco is clearly exemplified by Granainas....a clear fandangos derivative and member of the “levante” family, often coupled with malagueñas, the cante has an important conclusion shared only by Taranto, but despite the best efforts of tocaores throughout recorded history to destroy ambiguity between phrygian and relative minor, R. Montoya decided to ALWAYS conclude the form on the minor iv chord....leaving the impression the entire thing was actually in the minor key.
MOST tocaores since Montoya have continued the traditon, knowing full well the “problem” it causes. Some players have what I consider “the right idea” and end the thing on B, especially when accompanying cante. Montoya HIMSELF even does a brief parallel major statement on B major to conclude his famous guitar solo....but talk about a frustrating thing to end all that cante accompaniment he did on the E minor. And in Rumbas it is funny to note how when playing rumba por medio, it is never seen as “in D minor”, talking final estribillos....however the same exact song placed in B phrygian I can not count the number of times two or more guitarists clash on the final llamada because one go shifts to E minor the other holding on to the B conclusion....
But despite the above, it is clear that a conscious effort by flamenco guitarists is made in flamenco to kill that “Scarlatti” ambiguity of the minor half cadence. Look no further than transpositions of chords and falsetas that move from por Arriba to por medio....the corresponding D minor is substituted gladly for the Bb/D instead. It is a very deliberate decision, even if subconscious of the individual players actual thought process and transmitted via the tradition, over time.
Mark Indigo asked: Isn't "Hijaz" a Middle Eastern/Arabic Maquam? Do they have harmony and chords?
Traditional Arab and Turkish music is purely modal, with no chords, but from the mid-1800s related forms of Eastern European music were adding chords to melodies based on these modes, and this practice became common from the early 1900s in various kinds of Balkan, Eastern European, and Turkish urban music, including rebetika, klezmer, on down to Serbian turbo-folk etc. The structural affinities with flamenco harmony are obvious, and I have argued that they derive from related historical conditions, especially a natural way of harmonizing Hijaz-type modes used in predecessors to these musics. (Ricardo didn't agree with me.) I published an article on this 30 years ago. "Modal Harmony in Andalusian, Eastern European, and Turkish Syncretic Musics." If anyone is interested, here's the link: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/jj_pubs/314/
Thanks, I had read it. It was a couple of years ago. I read your one about Guajira between Cuba and Spain too. Good stuff.
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Piwin)
Talking about endings, e.g., of Granainas, and how that should maybe determine our perception of tonicity – perhaps you guys have heard what I heard someone do with rondeñas a while back, near the end he’s sitting on the D, noodling with that Lydian feel, and we (or I, at least) are waiting for him to ‘resolve’ it to the Phrygian C# tonic, but then he didn’t, he just ended on the D. “Hey, wait a minute! So it was in D Lydian all along?”
Joevidetto: <<By any chance, would there be any Youtube videos available that you could share for some of the referred music ?>>
Well, just youtubing around for 2 minutes, here are some typical Eastern Mediterranean tunes in Hijaz-type mode, which all show, among other things, use of the minor seventh chord. E.g., if we say it’s in E (scale: E F G# A etc), then tonic is E major, chords could include A minor, F major, D minor. What we don’t hear here is the Phrygian flat third like in flamenco. Most (but not all) Greek bouzouki music is in this quasi-Hijaz mode.
Ferdi Tayfur (Turkish arabesk)
Serbian brass band, Goran Bregovic, from film “Underground”
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to El Burdo)
quote:
The only thing that is missing is the root.
Wrong. What is also missing is the 9 th (C) 11th (E) and the 13th (G freaking #!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Because by ‘missing’ you have to mean NOTES OF THE DAMN SCALE. There is no G natural in the darn harmonic minor scale....that is the point of naming the scale what it is. What you are describing is when Bm7b5 is substituting as related to the NATURAL SCALE (I am sleeping soundly knowing that T bone walker would agree since that is the kind of scale G natural exists in.).
And that is not the ONLY scale G natural plus Bm7b5 exists in. D melodic minor is another beauty where YES the Bm7b5 can have a missing “G” root, and that fact doesn’t change because the 9th is raised (C#). C melodic minor also lets you get away with it. I could go on and on and on... but the point being, you don’t get to add chromatics to a 7 note scale (unless you want tonal ambiguity such as whole tone, diminished symmetrical or chromatic scales) and then pretend these chromatics open new functioning harmonies. There is no ABCDEFGG# scale...you have TWO scales there...when you want the G chord implication it also implied the natural scale, when you use G# dim7 it implies the harmonic minor.
I totally get your THINKING that the chord can function as such ...but you are interjecting that into a reverse logic concept where a “scale” can accept chromatics as it pleases due to the nature of a chord that can imply it’s existence. All you are doing is showing that TWO DIFFERENT SCALES (and more as I pointed out) share the same chord. This was never argued, in fact where this issue came up where I was saying flamenco is NOT based on a single nor set of scales alone, it operates as functional harmony keys do that are open to all 12 note chromatics and their harmonies AS THEY FUNCTION RELATIVE to the key center.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to El Burdo)
quote:
Although I only posted to justify the thinking on my G chord correlation (in a scale where a G is absent) the environment, por arriba, does contain that note, though used predominantly melodically.
You could have simply point out all the C and G chords a flamenco “por Arriba” song ACTUALLY uses if all you were intending to do is agree with me that Por Arriba has a variable G and G# note. I had been trying to show that the simplistic concept of a synthetic 8 note scale that uses both notes to justify the typical chords used was a misleading view of what the music is doing. While it would be “ok” to describe a Roman numeral system (done correctly) as fusions those two scales or any others (exactly like the minor key does), the main point I was making was flamenco does not use ONLY G and G# as variable...it can and does also use Eb, F#, Bb, C#... not only melodically but also for harmonic function. There is no ambiguity with harmonic function. It allows the music to escape a modal simplicity and embrace any available chromatic note, which is exactly what flamenco does.
Your interjection about upper harmonic structure implying invisible roots was only serving to defend the idea that this 8 note scale with two G’s, is justified as the basis of how flamenco works in por Arriba or any Phrygian centered song. While the fact that you know jazz musical devices is amazingly impressive, it was not particularly helpful or relevant in that particular discussion about “what scales does flamenco use”.
quote:
I find your explanations too complex - and that very likely means 'not right'.
Do you, sir, understand how minor keys function? I assume you do. Flamenco is the exact same but with a different tonic. Simple enough?
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
Do you, sir, understand how minor keys function? I assume you do. Flamenco is the exact same but with a different tonic. Simple enough?
I do agree with the position that a scale with both thirds accounts for all diatonic chords plus the raise third on the tonic. It is found everywhere in melodic and harmonic form. I previously called it flamenco octotonic or flamenco phrygian octotonic. Respell the g# enharmonically and you have an implied f minor (for an Easter egg study Pepe Habichuela's solea [fm-E/IIb-I]).
quote:
My jazz reference was to illustrate atonality and the challenge to harmony which I think is pertinent to all music. It wasn't done to impress you, old chap.
Those challenges to flamenco harmony are meaningless until Paco and after. Most non-chord tones in early flamenco can be chalked up to 1. open strings as an idiomatic device to accommodate fingering, 2. Shape playing that does not obey voice-leading, 3. Intuitive chromatic meanderings. The pillars and masters before Paco did not modulate and only occasionally tonicized other diatonic chords. And Jazz theories only go so far in explaining flamenco. v° (b-d-f), vii (d-f-a) and II (f-a-c) all have pre-dominant functions in minor, but in flamenco, they all function AS dominants, chords with some kind of tension or pull to the phrygian tonic.
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Brad Mehldau who has played with John Scofield. They play a contrafact along the lines of 'There Will Never be Another You'. I looked at Brad's solo - there were virtually no times when the notes he played related to the chords at all. It was bizarre how great it sounded.
You've got a lot of credibility in my book Ricardo, but on this point - how often is what you refer to really done ? I'd love to hear the example you're referring to, and 3 or 4 more - because if they're doing what they say you are doing, I'd love to hear more and learn how they approach finding these types of improvisation passages (or compositions more likely)
BTW El Burdo - a lot of what you say makes sense to me also - I believe in the KISS principal, and when too much theoretical complication makes it hard or impossible for one to follow that approach (granted, that is based on your mastery and fluency with theory), a simpler view that allows one to be productive with a device - even if not exactly representing the "theoretical underpinning" (whatever term Ricardo used) and maybe not even comprehensive given the theoretical underpinning, is OK in my book. Granted my book might be thinner than someone else's. I'll give an example - the diminished chord - where does it resolve ? You can probably write several pages on this topic if you want, with many levels of "indirection" - but for me, it's a great shortcut - and it may not be comprehensive, to know that given any note in the fingering of a diminished chord, I can move 1/2 step up to a root note and resolve. While this came from lots of theoretical explanations, this shortcut makes it usable for me - otherwise I couldn't do it.
And I do hear quite a bit of ego and condescension on this thread - that doesn't bode well for supportive, learning relationships.
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
There is no ABCDEFGG# scale...you have TWO scales there...when you want the G chord implication it also implied the natural scale, when you use G# dim7 it implies the harmonic minor.
If I remember rightly this was from a thread where someone was asking "what scale/s should I learn and practise" or something like that. Various scales were suggested, Burdo said harmonic minor. I think the octatonic thing was Kevin/Romerito/Beni (many names, many notes in the scale - some kind of pattern there? )
As "Por Arriba" means the fretting hand holding E major chord, Flamencos in Spain refer to the key or tonality as "E major" (correct in reference to the tonic chord, although we know it's technically "incorrect" in terms of key), or they say "Mi-Fa" (referencing the Tonic and Dominant function chord), or they call it "E Frigio". Intellectual absractions of rootless minor seven flat five chords are way more complex than anything in the flamenco tradition. Only musicians trained in western classical or jazz will insist it is in "A minor".
Also, it is MUCH easier to put the odd word in caps for emphasis than to have to click the italics button and then put the cursor in there before typing. I don't think one word in a sentence or paragraph is shouting, just emphasising the word. A WHOLE SENTENCE LIKE THIS ON THE OTHER HAND IS DEFINITELY SHOUTING!!!
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There is even a flamenco Tolkien ring/circle now.. in addition to the two versions of the circle of fifths above that 
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