RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: Flamenco Keys)

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Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Beni2)

quote:

I do agree with the position that a scale with both thirds accounts for all diatonic chords plus the raise third on the tonic. It is found everywhere in melodic and harmonic form. I previously called it flamenco octotonic or flamenco phrygian octotonic.

It does not account for the Bb7 or Aug6 chord in por medio, which is not only diatonic but a strong primary Cadential chord. I will only add that using the octatonic is ok if you want to devise Romans similar to how the basic minor key works (3 different scales), but it is incomplete in that form...more scales are needed. And finally the concept of a minor key is natural minor+harmonic+melodic to account for diatonic chords...not ABCDEFF#GG#...if you get my drift? That is NOT a scale that justifies minor key...it is a collection of notes considered “diatonic”. Simply put, if you are gonna talk about “diatonic chords”, you should have two or more SETS of Roman Numerals....that correspond to the fact you base your diatonic harmony on different scales...not one “super scale”.

About modulation ... they did use modulations. Fandangos is relative key modulation. Problem is the falseta modulations are often so brief to be considered tonicization of diatonic chords...but for sure parallel modulation has always been done. I agree that direct modulation and other types of exotic key changes (minor third, step wise, or even 4th or 5ths) were not used until “modern” flamenco started experimenting. Guajiras de lucia for example is pretty old school but moves from A to B to C#phrygian to E phrygian....again we could argue about how long or what constitutes modulation proper from tonicization of Diatonic chords.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2021 17:42:12

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to joevidetto)

quote:

You've got a lot of credibility in my book Ricardo, but on this point - how often is what you refer to really done ? I'd love to hear the example you're referring to, and 3 or 4 more - because if they're doing what they say you are doing, I'd love to hear more and learn how they approach finding these types of improvisation passages (or compositions more likely)

Hey joe, you are replying to me, but quoting Burdo...and like you, I would love to hear that example. I suspect this is subjective about it sounding cool. Dissonance does not always mean “out of key”. But it does remind of the joke about jazz “just play all the wrong notes as fast as possible”.

I am often frustrated trying to explain clearly what I am talking about when people reply with odd guitar speak revealing to me they weren’t really following. I think it whittles down to MINOR KEYS and how they operate differently than major keys. I think a lot of guitar players think Aeolian jams and minor keys are the exact same thing, and sometimes that exotic fully diminished7 you mentioned comes in for flavor, or not it’s all the same. I really don’t see it that way, it is much more black and white to me. If the people I am trying to translate flamenco concepts to already understand minor keys and tonal funciton, then I have a basis of how to move forward with how flamenco is similar and different to minor keys. What I often end up with is people that understand modes and jazz somewhat and cant’ get into “tonal function mind set”, even if they sort of understand ii-V-I. Blues jazz and rock operate differently, and it is a lot of “we don’t follow classic music rules here”, but that is not the point...it is not about “rules” it is about what a basic view of circle of 5ths shows is the scope of music on equal tempered instruments. Nothing in Rock or jazz is so innovative it violates the basic system at work.

Coming back to your diminished trick (you meant fully diminished7th, as there are two other types, half diminished, and diminished major7), the reason it works is simple. Spelling. If you spell the thing wrong on purpose you can use it as a device to move to other territories. Enharmonic misspelling is a fun trick jazz discipline uses to move around the wheel more freely. It is not complicated, but you can only use 7 letter names at a time. But right there a lot of guitar players are like “wow, too much theory for me!!!”. To explain what a simple scale implies I feel like I need to get super wordy to be crystal clear. I have restated countless times, the circle of 5ths contains all the logic about everything going on. If something doesn’t fit, then it is a spelling issue, it is real simple.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2021 18:08:00

El Burdo

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to joevidetto)

quote:

I'll give an example - the diminished chord - where does it resolve ?

I love these - you probably are thinking of this; one diminished 7th chord can be interpreted 4 ways - each note in that chord can be seen as a 3rd, a natural 5th, a 7th or a b9th related to some root. It's a rootless (careful now...) altered dominant 7th chord - so it can go any of four ways.

eg Gdim7 can be

A7b9 (G is the 7, Db is C#, the 3rd, E is the 5th, Bb is the b9)
Eb7b9 (G is the 3rd, Db is the 7th, E (Fb) is the b9, Bb is the 5th)...

Sim. for C7b9 and F#7b9.

EDIT: I guess this was covered earlier.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2021 20:02:52

El Burdo

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

Intellectual absractions of rootless minor seven flat five chords are way more complex than anything in the flamenco tradition.

Yes, I agree; I was only mentioning it (this time) as I was provoked. The first time, I meant it as a semi-amusing oddity that was at least sufficiently true to be of interest, in the context of so many people saying all I was saying was wrong.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2021 20:09:57

El Burdo

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

But it does remind of the joke about jazz “just play all the wrong notes as fast as possible”.

I have a picture of Grand Funk Railroad on stage in the 70s. Luxuriant hair is blowing in a 'rock' way - one guitarist is shouting to the other "It's C, F and G and if you can't do that, play loud!"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2021 20:15:02

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

eg Gdim7 can be

It can ONLY be the Eb7 sub. The others imply that the Gdim7 is actually an inversion of something else (ie spelled wrong). For example as a sub for F#7 it is A#diminised7 in 3rd inversion (A#dim7/G)...if a sub for A7 it is C#dim7/G, if a sub for C7 it is Edim7/G.....the misspelling is a fun trick that people can use to light their way through the dark jungle of harmony, but learning how to spell things correctly gets at the deeper logic and meaning of how music works.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2021 20:16:22

El Burdo

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

You might be able to get these - I didn't realise you were referring to me Joe, sorry.

You could try this on for size I guess too. Solo after about 6mins.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2021 20:25:00

El Burdo

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

Chart.

https://jazztranscriptions.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/brad-mehldau-not-you-again-solo-no-chords.pdf

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2021 20:42:36

joevidetto

Posts: 91
Joined: Jun. 15 2013

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

I didn't realise you were referring to me Joe, sorry.

Sorry about that - I didn't realize I was referring to you either lol - thanks for pointing that out Ricardo, sorry about the misquote.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2021 20:55:42

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

There is an American pianist called Brad Mehldau who has played with John Scofield. They play a contrafact along the lines of 'There Will Never be Another You'. I looked at Brad's solo - there were virtually no times when the notes he played related to the chords at all. It was bizarre how great it sounded. I'm not talking of 'side slipping' or anything as trite, but whole arpeggios of unrelated chords. If Brad was 'borrowing notes' he will have been deeply in...debt...er.. (whatever).

Thanks for the score. So I learned this simple concept from mclaughlin instructional DVD....if you are jazz enthusiast it is a cool thing to check out. As you advance through the chapter you final arrive at the good stuff in chapter 9. What he does is impose melodic minor modes over the 2-5-1 and admits to creating devices that function so if it is fast you can toss them out quick. The general one is play Aeolian b5 over the 2 chord (mode 6 melodic minor) and super loc on the 5 (mode 7 melodic). The tensions created invite the accompanying chords to change...and indeed in the actual play along charts those tensions are played in the chord voicings. But the point he made was you can invoke these tensions even on basic chords...but the tensions are obviously more violent.

So in your piece the piano player is not always doing those exact modes, but he is doing his more violent tensions and chromatics on each respective 2 or 5 chord....and clearly resolving on the respective 1 chords with consonant intervals. That is why it sounds “cool”...but the real reason his tensions don’t hurt your ear relative to the chart chords is that nobody is actually PLAYING those chords. If you play along with the written voicings and don’t add your own tensions (and some cases if you DO add the wrong tensions it could be worse!) then you hear the violence. So it’s only walking bass until he adds left hand chords which as wrtten, are not the charted chords either. At one point even the 2-5 the bass does the tritone subs to be more in key with the piano briefly... anyway things like playing Bm9 arpeggio against the Bbm7 implied chord sounds cool and dissonant...but if you actually play the Bbm chord it sounds pretty bad....but he releases the tension finally at the Abmj7 ...so that is basically “typical’ in my jazz brain.

I know in jazz they sometimes feel they have taken chromaticism to a new upgraded level in context improvising in a basic “song”. But check this old fugue ... especially around 2minute mark it gets really crazy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 14:45:38

El Burdo

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

I'm so naive

. I should have realised you would actually analyse it and then teach me!

But, fair play, you are right of course - in jazz, it's the principle of 'tension and release'. The amount of tension you want depends on the scales you use and the environment you play them against. Most blowers will play some alterations on V and as rhythm section you have to decide whether to go with them and anticipate or let them have a clear view of their target and stay vanilla. It isn't generally a good look to say 'yeah, I was thinking that too' when providing harmony, it is after all their solo. Unless you're really blowing, which tends not happen in restaurants. And as you further say, the jazz melodic minor (same down as up) is the frequent vehicle.

What you are noting though is 'an approach to tension' and not why it sounds so good. Yes, predominantly he is resolving on the I chords fairly neatly. That wouldn't happen so clearly with other later non-bebop jazz though. The colour tones, alterations, whatever, happen on the approaches, quite a lot on the ii chords which isn't all that common.

One thing that occurred to me when I just listened to it (once, so you might like to check) is that when playing Bm over B♭m for example, he may well have been playing Bm in his left hand. I don't think this invalidates what I was saying either, a chord is after all a scale to a jazz pianist and he decided that the sound was good against the charted harmonic movement (the actual written chords even) by and large being carried by the bass player - i.e. someone has to be right in a tune and it generally falls to the bass player. The clash is still very strong, so what's it clashing with if there is no clash between left and right hands? Presumably the bass in the distance. And to some extent familiarity with the tune proper.

I don't play modally generally - If we are just talking of the mm, I would use all of the scale against any chord that is harmonised from it (there's no avoid note) - a derived approach (i.e. parent scale) rather than direct (i.e. a named mode for that chord).

You mention tricks: one nice mm trick on a minor ii V i is play the ø arpeggio on the ii, then play the same shape a m3rd up for the altered dominant, then play the same shape a further M3rd up for the i (getting the M7th). Similar to the diminished 7 'steam engine over damsel tied to the rails' trick but with harmonic movement.

I have to say that, apart from buying the two religious albums in the 70s I find John McLaughlin really quite tedious. Technique up the wazoo yes, but he over-relies on the minor pentatonic IMO. You should be listening to Allan Holdsworth.

Anyway, Ricardo, enough of jazz - please define your scales and harmony for Soleá, Siguiriyas etc in a separate post. I'm sure many would be interested. As I say, I can't see anything as assertive as what is written here on the interweb. Nothing snide here either, it's a genuine call, and a challenge. You beat people up enough, how about a structured definition?

Sorry Simon for the diversion.

EDIT: ffs - you've added to your post since I started my reply 4 hours ago. I'll look at it now, but should probably leave this for the moment and let you all get back to that other aide-memoire, the Cycle of Fifths. (on which: Why not just learn intervals and work it out? It's like having exercises laboriously written out in all 10 keys)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 16:34:00

El Burdo

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

It's beautiful. Did he do anything else?

I like the chromatic nature but is it the same? Approach notes are weak so it's not that jarring, it's when the chromatics hit the down beats that it stands out. I thought bar 47 was the best bar. That was a surprise. I have a book on composition by Persichetti - he writes suggestions like the Dorian in LH and Phrygian from a different key in the RH. I've only ever made it sound like a complete mess, as I do polychords.

I'm not a defender of jazz, I'm not even a jazzer. But, I think anyone who thinks they are writing a new world should listen to some classical music from the early 20 century. I would, but I don't like strings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 16:51:16

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

You mention tricks: one nice mm trick on a minor ii V i is play the ø arpeggio on the ii, then play the same shape a m3rd up for the altered dominant, then play the same shape a further M3rd up for the i (getting the M7th). Similar to the diminished 7 'steam engine over damsel tied to the rails' trick but with harmonic movement.

Sorry I only added the Bach thing to the previous post (I was looking for some chromatic piano that showed a similar dissonance that resolves to consonant place but was more deliberately “tonal”.). It is NOT the same of course, that’s why I wanted to show it as more “tonal” concept. Though a similar idea of tension and release is at play.

Yes I forgot to mention that the two mm modes I described are the same scale a minor third apart. (2-5–1 in C means F melodic then Ab melodic and yes C is a major 3rd up from that.). So one could potentially play the same phrase, scalar or arpegio, and move it up 3 frets. Anyway after going through his course I did start noticing the fun stuff happening on the 2 chords in jazz.

About flamenco key system. I feel I need something as a musical reference outside of pure flamenco in order to justify the concept. I am still sort of searching for such a thing but my research tells me I am pretty close. The reason it is important is because if the only musical examples are flamenco itself, it can be argued for a prejudice in favor of something that is too specific. As I have stated over and over, it is not easy to justify Solea/fandango in E phrygian as legitimate distinct “key” from A minor proper. Anything I might say about it can be scrubbed in favor of “half cadence” by a good musician unfamiliar with flamenco compas. What has been going on in literature is folks are cool with “modes” from a rock/jazz guitar perspective and feel that is sufficient to explain flamenco. We have already seen that most of us can tell the different between “fakemenco” vs what actually goes on in andalucia. Andalusian cadence serves nothing more than point back to minor key function. Since I can barely convince you guys that actually know about flamenco and importantly COMPAS, what the heck I am talking about, then you need to wait until I can get some concrete thing that can be analyzed correctly from NON flamenco people, as representative of the same thing we have going on.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 16:52:05

joevidetto

Posts: 91
Joined: Jun. 15 2013

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

I'm so naive . I should have realised you would actually analyse it and then teach me!

I didn't intentionally set it up that way - but I saw that coming lol

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 19:08:09

El Burdo

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to joevidetto)

quote:

I can get some concrete thing that can be analyzed correctly from NON flamenco people, as representative of the same thing we have going on.

Well, this is certainly a fertile direction (as you have all been discussing)...wikiquote:The harmonic minor is also occasionally referred to as the Mohammedan scale...commonly found in Middle Eastern music. The harmonic minor scale as a whole is called Nahawand[6] in Arabic nomenclature, as Bûselik Hicaz[7] in Turkish nomenclature, and as an Indian raga, it is called Keeravani/Kirwani...

@joe - Yeah. Thanks...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 20:07:26

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

Well, this is certainly a fertile direction (as you have all been discussing)...wikiquote:The harmonic minor is also occasionally referred to as the Mohammedan scale...commonly found in Middle Eastern music. The harmonic minor scale as a whole is called Nahawand[6] in Arabic nomenclature, as Bûselik Hicaz[7] in Turkish nomenclature, and as an Indian raga, it is called Keeravani/Kirwani...

As I said before, non tempered, non funcional ie non useful/false equivalence.

I thought it was clear the concrete example I need has to be equal tempered basically, and functional western instrument oriented. For Example that ca 1800 harpsichord “fandango” score was ALMOST the perfect example I could have used to illustrate my point. However when I examined it closer it doesn’t really work for our purposes, it is simply “minor key” piece using half cadence. We deliberately avoid that device in flamenco today. To make that work I would have to alter all the guys d minor chords, and I dont’’ want to do that. I intend to find SOMETHING man, and I will I promise, and when I do I will write out the thing crystal clear.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 20:12:23

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

Modes are a great way of mapping out the available notes, specially when visualizing on the fingerboard but the tonal functioning harmony is not the same as really using modes in a piece of music. To me the vanilla minor key is not even a thing functionally because for it to work functionally for my ears there's always that raised 7th making it harmonic minor, not vanilla minor.

In the end I guess that I only ear the major key as being functional and everything else as a segment of that and when a forceful tonicization is happening, it sounds has a mode to me.

To conclude, flamenco sounds like regular major scale tonal music to me, except for the parts where it is not.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 20:16:35

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

In the end I guess that I only ear the major key as being functional and everything else as a segment of that and when a forceful tonicization is happening, it sounds has a mode to me.

To conclude, flamenco sounds like regular major scale tonal music to me, except for the parts where it is not.

That is pretty much it. I feel like your basic minor operation, as you said “only the major key is functional”, so there is some STUFF going on that legitimizes the concept of a “minor key”. So that is where I would love to begin by showing we can do the same for phrygian.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 20:22:27

joevidetto

Posts: 91
Joined: Jun. 15 2013

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo - you've often stated that one must learn how the minor key works in order to understand lots of flamenco concepts. Can you reccommend a book or website that does this in a way you feel complete and accurate ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 20:39:48

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ah, nice.. I am not the only one with crazy hearing hehe

On phrygian and flamenco I can hear weird too. For instance, the inverted Bb chord for me keeps sounding as a Dmin with a raised 5th...it's like my mind puts it as a D, going to C, down to Bb and A.

Bb's also sound dominant, although modally as a degree it would be Lydian. It just sounds like it, maybe idiomatically, wants to resolve a half step below. It even sounds great with added tension, just like a dominant would.

Really like this Bb:

x
3
3
3
x
4

Tension note on the bass that ends up making it a "true dominant" that still resolves a half step back. Well, looking at it now, maybe with this particular one it's just some a tri tone sub which I hadn't thought of before.. ok, carry on with the lessons.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2021 20:42:24

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Bb's also sound dominant, although modally as a degree it would be Lydian. It just sounds like it, maybe idiomatically, wants to resolve a half step below. It even sounds great with added tension, just like a dominant would.

Really like this Bb:

x
3
3
3
x
4

Yes exactly right...the Ab bass note is actually a G# leading tone, the same one that is altering Em to E maj to resolve to A minor. But you have F instead of E note, or rather a Bb triad up top. That thing in classical music is called “Augmented 6th chords” in classical theory classes...the idea being it is tonicizing the Dominant chord in the key of D or D minor. But in jazz, yes, the misspelled G#->Ab allows your tritone swap of E7b5 with Bb7. It is functioning the SAME way in both schools of thought, but it is not so obvious to everyone it is actually the Phrygian Cadence at work.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2021 2:01:29

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ah yes, the V of the V, I can see that. Had never thought of it that way because I don’t really hear it wanting to go up to D. In the end, it’s all a matter of context and the genre/vocabulary in question.

Analysis is mostly a bunch of numbers that represent distances but, by themselves, they don’t mean that much. Looking forward to the audiobook version of this thread.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2021 2:28:18

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to joevidetto)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joevidetto

Ricardo - you've often stated that one must learn how the minor key words in order to understand lots of flamenco concepts. Can you reccommend a book or website that does this in a way you feel complete and accurate ?

The simple logic to the concept sitting in my brain is not fully realized anywhere I see on youtube. I either see missing pieces or too long and boring lectures with tiny errors. These two short videos, plus the third on secondary dominants are a good intro but we need to next see a professor analyzing a piece of music properly, a piece that is sufficiently involved to cover all the bases. Tonal Harmony text books should have this but I learned it all on blackboard so I can’t recommend any single book.

Here is a “correct” analysis in a minor key.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2021 4:35:35

JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Hey theory nerds,

Is there a name for a sus2 triad with a flattened 5th ? Is it just sus2flat5?

Just practicing by triad inversions and was wondering

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2021 17:01:17

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

Hey theory nerds,

Is there a name for a sus2 triad with a flattened 5th ? Is it just sus2flat5?

Just practicing by triad inversions and was wondering

If you say “sus2” it implies the third is absent and the 5th is present. But if you say “b5” it means you have either a vii dim chord in major or iidim in minor. It could also be the chord is misspelled and needs #4 instead of b5. It would be important for myself to know if the appropriate scale melody is lydian or aeolian b5. And vice versa...if you have that contextual info you could interpret the chord correctly. For example play A lydian then C melodic minor over this chord to see why it is important:

X
0
2
1
0
X

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2021 23:51:35

JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ahh ok, thanks!

What I was doing was

x
5
5
5
x
x

Then

x
3
5
4
x
x

so that F# should be considered a sharp 4 not a flat 5 because it’s not dim7 nor m7b5... I guess I need to crack open the Beato book before I start to go astray

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2021 1:23:13

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

Ahh ok, thanks!

What I was doing was

x
5
5
5
x
x

Then

x
3
5
4
x
x

so that F# should be considered a sharp 4 not a flat 5 because it’s not dim7 nor m7b5... I guess I need to crack open the Beato book before I start to go astray

Actually it is NOT a #4 either in that context, though it would be if you had a C bass note. Moving from C triad to what you think is “Csus2/Gb” is over complicating it. The chord is D7/F#...and normally we play A open so you can see and name it correctly, but in this case the 5th is omitted. The root is D. That is why circle of 5th is helpful to see the bigger picture.

However by forcing me to guess that C was the bass note, and playing Eb melodic minor, you can see how exotic “enharmonic misspellings” can operate. While the context tells us it is a D7 chord, the concept of forcing the exotic scale over it (tritone sub is Ab7#11 lydian dominant mode 4 of Eb melodic) is how jazz often works.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2021 1:48:21

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

How are you guys coming up with sus2flat5? Sounds like an inverted dom7 chord..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2021 1:58:38

Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

How are you guys coming up with sus2flat5? Sounds like an inverted dom7 chord..

He viewed the middle note as the root...which we have already determined was incorrect. That is why I doubled it in octaves to drive my point. He spelled it wrong as b5-1-2, thinking the E drop to D was suspension from the C triad, and the G-F# was a 5 to b 5 situation. With correct spelling it should be 3-b7-1...5th was omitted. The missing info I was delt was the preceding C triad that completes the picture. However with the 5th omitted from the D7/F#, it is hopefully clear that my melodic minor offering, AND my C lydian offering BOTH WORK REGARDLESS.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2021 2:04:04

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)

Yes, I had a opened a few threads and this one didn't have your last answer.

I think this is a good example of why we need to analyse with our ears first. There aren't as many chords as one would think. Now that I think of it, we have way more chord structures that are inversions than plain ones. If you see/hear a fourth (or a sixth) in a funky place, chances are that the chord isn't in root position.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2021 2:15:46