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RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations?
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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quote:
I read somewhere that the syntax of Malay was fairly straightforward. I guess I was misinformed.
No, you are correct, Paul. Nevertheless, Malay has many prefixes and suffixes that must be learned, and that change the meaning of a root word depending on the context. Additionally, Malay contains many derivatives from Arabic and Sanskrit, as does Indonesian. The Malay Archipelago was a center for trade with India, Sri Lanka, and Arabia, and the language absorbed many words from those trading peoples.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 7 2020 22:30:26
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
quote:
and rancour
There's no way that's not a word you anglos stole from us! Give it back! I forget who it was, but recently I heard someone say: "why do we call those "loan words" anyway? It's not like we're going to give them back..."
though likely we didn't borrow or steal it, more likely it was forced on "us"* by the Normans a thousand years ago! Curiously all the English words for meat (beef, mutton etc.) come from French, and all the words for the animals (cow, sheep etc.) come from Anglo-Saxon because the Norman conquerors got to eat the meat, while the Angle-Saxon serfs had to do the work of looking after the animals!
*what "us" means I have no idea - Celtic, Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman (who were originally "Norsemen"), whatever....
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Date Dec. 9 2020 19:39:29
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to devilhand)
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Take it easy guys. It's just a forum. Nothing happened. No one has died. rasgeo77 seems to come on a bit strong. I guess it's just the way he is. On the other hand mark indigo reacts to it a bit in a sensitive way. I think rasgeo77 replied to my post in a similar way in the past once or twice. I had no problem with it.
Thanks for trying to help, really, very kind of you. Usually I try to resolve conflicts by talking it out, and to defuse arguments by listening to the other person's point of view, but when the other person won't communicate constructively, doesn't seem to have a point of view, and just keeps coming back with hostility.... I really don't know what to make of it. In the end it seems like senseless provocation.... so walking away is the only option. Better late than never.
I already said, sure I'm sensitive, I think it's a strength, not a weakness, so I'm not offended by being called that. I think it is a pre-requisite for a musician, for any artist, and especially for an accompanist. But what people usually mean when they call someone "sensitive" is that they think the person is upset over nothing, or over-reacting. That's a matter of opinion...
I have no problem with anyone expressing their views or opinions in a "strong" way in a discussion, but personal attacks are something different, like in football you're supposed to kick the ball not the other players - play the ball not the man.
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Date Dec. 9 2020 19:45:37
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aaron peacock
Posts: 141
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Mark2)
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I started studying with a local singer. Unfortunately, since she had no knowledge of the guitar, the lessons consisted of her shaking her head when I played the wrong chord. I was rather dumbfounded when she said my flamenco education had begun. I asked what she thought I had been doing the previous five or so years and she said "Studying the guitar"
I want to frame that quote and post it as the epitaph to this thread.
It's amazingly spot on. It says so much. Thank you.
I noted a fair sizable pissing contest and territorial dispute but I'm a primate too hey, so pass the bananas, Estebanana I love your purism and I respect your luthiership all the more knowing this side here too.
Piwin, also full respect, especially any luthiers are full cultural ambassadors etc.
I will humbly propose that, as a lifelong musician from a musical family steeped in all the music always yes more yes, having a fair amount of theory in my head, etc, that the only composers who write from a basis of music theory are car mechanics. music PEOPLE feel things and have music running in their heads 24 hours a day elaborating all the symphonies, songs, jams, ditties, advertising jingles, ringtones, tonal phrasing of verbal comments etc from the memory banks, and creativity is part of the hearing and interpretation process.
I learned all my languages by immersion, as a child, never once by a grammar and books and theory and gatekeepers can get stuffed as I read them, dispute their authority, recuse their primary points, and live a live exemplary to the opposite. I learned Russian inside of a week with Russians in Russia. I was hungry. Тиь голоднй? хоциш по кушить?
after awhile, and with gestural accompaniament, and elaboration of "ya kushal" etc, i started to instinctively apprehend the grammer, ya hutchoo kushit! any Russian speakers can laugh at my bad orthography or grammar but i get it, i get how it works, i function, that is what people want, musical aknowledgement of ideas, its the next best thing to telepathy, not some forum gatekeepers describing a dead corpse after the fact: music is a living language. modern classical music has failed to realize this, but Bach jammed. Don't ya'll noodle around ever? If you played 46 year of flamenco guitar you would probably be able to goof around decently also, right? you never mix-n-match or it's only holy reverence for what official other people did?
I find it hard to believe that you think what was basically functional I IV V folk music and popular tunage filtered through the ghetto cultural lensing and only later was allowed to explore roots and connections publicly was somehow miraculously captured for all eternity by it's primary exponent in the jazz fusion world, who lamented his inability to improvize IN THE SAME MANNER as jazzians, but who nonetheless clearly ELABORATED and wove his thematic material throughout everything, as any composer does. How can you NOT? you can't always remember whether you alread did something and one has a tendency to do the same things, approach wise, at least. Welcome to being a human. Frozen in ice? No, live on video, and ideologically AN INSPIRATION AND MUSE, but Idol, never, and never confuse the finger pointing at the moon for the moon.
Consider the palos, in their poor caves.
Speaking of Plato, surely you learned folk have all read his "Respublica"? and his summary of the concept that a given people will be yoked to their art such as to reinforce the given primary emotions, such that sad national music makes for a sad povo, and martial national music makes for a warlike people, etc.
Which palos currently are seen as expressing MORE FLAMENCO ideals or emotions than others?
Which palos are interesting for you and which are not?
Which ones elaborate functional harmonic structures and which ones do not? Which ones are currently popular and which ones were popular back when a certain OTHER person went to North American (USA & Mex) and toured with a certain famous dancer who wore mens trousers and danced mens dances like an iconoclast, even though all had to basically represent a national body of art in foreign lands, and generally be SPANISH, etc.
Lot's of questions about any given countries waves of musical importation,particularly as it goes BOTH WAYS!
Flamenco was contemporary music!
Are palos de ida y vuelta not simply the pop music of the time filtered through a lens?
What would a flamenco version of Despacito sound like? (just kidding, don't even attempt this as a thought exercise or thousands of chicken kittens will die at once)
I'm not naive, I'm just trying to strip the braggadocio. I live in Portugal (speak Portuguese and some English.) and also speak Spanish. I attend concerts and encounter juergas etc as contextually appropo. I'm actually familiar with flamenco music since childhood, as my father is quite a fan, but I digress, as I am wont to. I can play a reasonably crap basic flamenco guitar and have no issues accompanying anyone but I think that aping a PDL solo is a bit of a recipe for skating my chin across the floor rather ungracefully, but I don't see that as a requirement for flamenco understanding, let alone being a legit guitar player that people like having accompany them. It's, shall we say, less flashy, but ultimately the core of the music, as in Rock the lead guitar bedroom guitar is not the core essence but rhythm guitar, bass, and drums are the essence that a vocalist needs, if anything they compete with lead guitar. I'm not primarily rock based, I like it as a "rock bottom lowest common denominator" metaphor in music, as that's the essence of "I had all the doodles in my noodle but i could caboodle the poodle when push came to shove circa drunken Spaniard Fandango 3am" but I'd probably flail worse so, no worries, I'd stall and ask if he meant "de ida y vuelta?" and just see what rhythm his gesticulating hand was moving at when he demanded this piece... and play a descending 4 3 2 1 with flat 9 LOL
No but seriously, i do practice, i have no fear of work. Challenge my ideas not my audacity to propose them, lol. I play many musical instruments badly many hours a day!
There are out-of-tune lousy players that are flamenco AF, but you will largely encounter this in Spain as that's where it makes cultural sense, like bluegrass music in USA. It's not about some technical dexterity nor how well you can play Eddie Van Halens "Eruption)
I can play Eruption on a flamenco guitar pretty reasonably, and I intend to eventually integrate it into my sacriligeous medley I shall one day post "no es flamenca" well it wasn't part of the plan until now, but I've sorta backed myself into a corner, haven't I.
Mind you, ridicule does not constitute an immanent critique...forewarned is forearmed and foreskinned er foreskint? my apologies if this sounds sexist and/or classist in the latter case.
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Date Dec. 12 2020 1:45:59
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aaron peacock
Posts: 141
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
quote:
used earlier and am surprised no one scoffed at: "I'm a musical genius"
At the moment you get over yourself you might start learning.?
It looks like you enjoy selection quotation and/or did not read the phrase that followed it, Sir!
Look up the etymology of the word GENIUS and you see an inner connection to ones muse, nothing about social status judgements but more about a religious profession of faith.
Feel free to directly engage with my points at any juncture. Or not.
I recommend that you never get over yourself, and respect the corporeal knowledge that Ricardo has embedded in his muscle memory etc.
Also respect the feelings and meaning he obtains from hearing or playing sonorities. It's his connection to God.
It's a question of religion. Being immediately connected to music is a birthright for all humans. Being a genius is your birthright. Don't let McDonalds Amazon sell you back your own leg for a markup.
I contend that a musical person must have an inner connection to music that can withstand even the boldest human attempts to condition it. It's essential, in my obviously not very humble opinion. I suggest that any human can also come into contact with their inner muse and music, but hey, you probably already do/did and we are arguing about pedantic nonsense as it's an internet forum.
'm quite sure you hear your own musical voice, as I've heard it, and it's sophisticated. You surely have a point of view and are not a neutral channel. The virtuoso guitarist angle on flamenco is not the primary angle for most outside of guitar-land, to be sure. (it rhymes with a popular dance aerobics brand mark) it's a social song and dance thing and outside of the traditional context it's a known fact that sterility can occur, so settle ye not into worship of format, but follow the essence, as all survivors always do.
A composer who writes music from the basic of music theory is a car mechanic and I don't know any good ones as such, although a technique or alien artifact or compositional architectural expose is a welcome influence, there we start learning already! We react. We are active students.
The world outside is an influence, surprise surprise my music is derivative and not original! It's filtered through my messed-up humanity called "my interpretation"
surely you noodle, jam, doodle, goof around with a guitar in your hands now and then?
You are virtuoso musician, surely your noodling is top class and derives many concepts from all the amazing music you have eaten and played over the decades!
Of course I hear, can sing, digest someones melodies, etc.
One reacts to a newly heard riff or falseta, They are intellectual concepts.
There's not a living soul nor dead that can cut any music persons God-Given-Legs and it's not any claim to expertise as I'm nearly always wrong, for example, but a claim to knowing music like you know your own hand or face.
Yes i am also mid-40's and lifelong musician mate, c'mon, I love playing jazz drums, I play pretty OK, and there's amazing players out there and even trying to learn their beats is a mindblowing lesson in "that guys body and brain work differently than mine do" and VERY educational,
Music is a language. Music theory is a verbal grunt interpretation of it in dissected "after it died" format, or that's just someone soloing over the changes in scalar noodle doodle format. I grok and enjoy other peoples music, yours, for example!
I learn all the time. as much as possible. I learn a lot from comments you have made that I dissect sometimes.
...but that's not what we are arguing about here, is IT!!!! we are arguing about the spirit of music and I'm basically bringing up a painful point of how PDL was an incarnate vehicle for transmutating so many ideas, and utterly brilliant, and fusing so many things, but that's nothing really to do with playing flamenco music, or rather, tangential, as a virtuoso soloist emerging from that tradition and interacting with global contemporary musics.
He showed us so many possible roads, and that's why rote repetition goes against what he was trying to stir up, but that's another topic. Yes, you can harmonically analyze a chunk of notes and use that information without learning a single falseta of his, no there's nothing wrong with learning entire pieces of his, and so it was finally nothing that bothered me, per se, but a notation "hey there's thing THING here in this scene where these people idolize a certain period of music and repeat it much as we all learned certain R&R band riffs back in the 80's etc." and that being rather distinct from "flamenco" (guitar wizardry is not the central theme to "flamenco" as you know.)
so, I failed to show proper deference for the need to be ABLE to play PDL songs verbatim, but I will shortly/eventually humiliate myself with videos here , but the palos, the formats, the structures, these are platonic things I may TRY to copy and just as recording takes are like 1, 2, 3, 999 you just never quite "nail" it the same way twice, even if you try.
The achievement is amazing, the goal is questionable. I heard of this person that can peel a banana, never mind...
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Date Dec. 12 2020 2:55:42
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aaron peacock
Posts: 141
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo)
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Sorry, about the "La Tumbona" I was surprised to hear exact renditions of this, not interpreted or altered (to any serious extent) from the recordings, or rather a specific recording, that was all.
This is all rather unrelated to Flamenco, other than a helluva piece one may present in Jerez some August on a stage focused on artistic interpretations of a buleria.
Many things got mixed-up here, but I think we basically arrived at me challenging the English Speaking Flamenco Fan Worlds obsession with Paco De Lucia and being able to play his music as similarly as possible as he did.
I understand Grisha as someone who presents a classical repetoire of flamenco pieces and related music of possible Spanish origin, as a sort of salon distillation summary of a giant body of music, and thus his art is in selection, interpretation (with great taste! faithfulness is hard to say with 19th and early 20th century composers etc.) as well as being an exceptional musician,
I'm primarily objecting to the concept that one must study
1) PDL solo pieces played verbatim (nothing to do with playing flamenco guitar, really, in an ensemble context)
2) other peoples falsetas repeated verbatim and not elaborated or altered for your own usage etc.
I'm also asking if one seriously means to disqualify non-quitarists from musical composition, singing or playing flamenco, feeling flamenco, being flamenco, and lots of philosphical questions. (here that implies that one is Belgian, or rather Flemish, but there's some ideas about flame that I'm not too sure about, I suspect a "traveler' shorthand in calling them Flemish, as one would have also fled Holland during the inquisition and such, and perhaps Flanders is a polite way of hiding and returning etc.
Initially I was asking for cultural references, but since I got the Cult Trip, I decided that it's time for a revolution instead.
ok, revolution. I am appointing each one of you to become a Musical Genius this week. You are hereby authorized and vested with all the authority therein to determine what a particular musical phrase is communicating to you. Music, the original protestant church in which you need no priest, nor advocate.
Most of you already ARE musical genii. Genii comes from the same root. Check your local chapter for details as it surely is more updated to the situation in your head and training than I am.
Being a genius is not making you better than other humans, it's making you connected to your inner musical voice that hears and sings everything all the time, brains, patterns, codes, recognition. re. cognition.
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Date Dec. 12 2020 3:05:36
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to kitarist)
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In the early 1990s in Sofia this got stretched to an extreme by enterprising language schools - you pay them and they mostly give you "special" tapes and claim that if you play them all night while you sleep (i.e. the ULTIMATE TOTAL IMMERSION) your subconscious will absorb the language very quickly. There were numerous such "3-4 weeks to [English] fluency" courses if I remember correctly Very expensive!
IIRC, there is some research showing that there can be some limited benefits to listening during sleep, for things like vocabulary acquisition. But yeah, it's certainly not the key that distinguishes successful language learners from those who fail. And yeah, IMHO anyone who claims you can reach fluency in a matter of weeks is either lying or setting an extremely low bar for what they're calling "fluency".
But from what I can gather, the people who are following this approach I talked about really aren't doing that. In fact it's rather the opposite (personally I can't imagine delaying output for a year or more when learning a language. I think I would get bored and give up.). It's just that they're working from a certain set of assumptions about how a language is best acquired, but they're not trying to cut any corners or skim on effort. The person I was exchanging with via email gave me a timeline of about 5 years for learning French. Not that the language learning process stops after that of course. But 5 years was the point where he felt he had reached what he was striving for. He only started speaking and writing in the language about 18 months in, which to me is just crazy, but hell, while I have my doubts about whether this was the most efficient approach, I can't deny that his French was indeed top-notch.
quote:
Wow, is that drawing real?
Yes. It's part of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayeux_Tapestry
It was made in England but now resides in Normandy. They probably gifted it to Normandy out of pity because there's just nothing else there of interest.
(sorry but I'm from Brittany. It would be a dereliction of duty if I didn't take a cheap shot at Normandy whenever I can.  )
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Date Dec. 12 2020 7:16:04
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aaron peacock
Posts: 141
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
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And yeah, IMHO anyone who claims you can reach fluency in a matter of weeks is either lying or setting an extremely low bar for what they're calling "fluency".
I'd say "grading nets of increasing refinement"
- start coarse, grasp essential structures, emphasize connections (even at the sake of honesty, many latinic grammatical connections alter orthography such as 'combat' and in Português we have duzentos which is fine to conceptualize as dois centos initially, maybe butchering this example. hope you get the idea
- develop a passion and interest through genuine connection. I have since continued learning Russian, but 1 week waiting for the first English speaker to arrive resulted in immersion that connected and cemented it for me.
I saw some anti-childlike sentiments expressed by you that I simply find to be obstructive ideology that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I guess I feel these ideas a bit like those "you can't learn languages after age 3" doom predictions some people (not you) make.
Everyone from Buddha to Christ to star athletes to drum coaches emphasize a clean-mind approach. "be like a child".
direct connection. You look at a Rembrandt or a Matisse, you don't read an art critics review of it. You have your own connection with it.
Your brain is roughly similar to other human brains and capable of roughly what any human brain is capable of, given appropriate decisions and their effects.
You can certainly study all the music in the world, learn all the music theory in the world, and yet still understand that The Creator is not The Editor nor The Engineer, and that is why you have many hats.
Any person who works with having to create on a daily basis, advertising industry, writers, illustrators, they will all speak of how you have to get the flow going and channel things and allow allow allow and basically tell your "smarty pants" brain to shut-up and allow the child to breathe.
I am absolutely sure about this, so be convinced :D
In any case, lot's of "soft-science" subjectivity peddled by the kilogram as Authoritative Cudgels to Support Erroneous Ideas Contrary To God and Nature abound in this world, don't you agree?
Removing emotional baggage:
- sometimes one doesn't even realize how limiting ones conceptualizations of others approval (whose?) are actually impeding physical skills!
a guilt reflex or hangover amygdala chemical inspired fatigue can result in a lost boxing bout or death on the battlefield! one cannot afford to allow some silly incorrect collection of rules derived by analysis of art to influence the creation of it, other than to provide some context as in "I see what others have done" or "gee, it seems like heroin is not a great path forward as a jazz musician, career-wise" etc.
Humility and respect for what exists is inbuilt to the perspective of "perpetual wonder like a child" and, indeed, such joy in learning and discovering without needing to be "an expert" is really the best way to exel at virtually any human endeavour.
@RobF, your Rabbit Joke was marvelously funny and unexpected
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Date Dec. 13 2020 12:32:40
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