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What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations?
I'm confused. What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Typically, a modern performer playing an exact replica of a Paco de Lucia bulerias, or an exact replica of another greats original interpretation of a palo.)
I see youtube full of technically brilliant players, often young, but there's this thing in which they play "La Tumbona" note-for-note, when PDL himself never played someone elses bulerias, and typically was modifying his "bulerias catalog" over the years in only small passes, adding new falsetas, trying an introduction that was unique to each location/performance, etc, but you basically hear PDL's "corpus bulerias" en masse during each new interpretation, rejuggled in composition, omitting parts, adding parts, but undeniably HIS...
I can name names, but I don't see the "point" in pointing fingers, it's more of a cultural question. When did this become "dead" music to copy and not own?
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
I'm confused. What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Typically, a modern performer playing an exact replica of a Paco de Lucia bulerias, or an exact replica of another greats original interpretation of a palo.)
Mario Escudero recorded Niño Ricardo's Farruca and Ramón Montoya's Rondeña.
Manuel Cano recorded a whole album of Ramón Montoya's solos ("Evocation Of The Guitar Of Ramon Montoya".
Andres Batista recorded solos from Esteban de Sanlúcar and Mario Escudero.
Paco de Lucía recorded solos from Mario Escudero and Esteban de Sanlúcar.
Paco Peña recorded an album of solos by Ramón Montoya and Niño Ricardo.
Rafael Riqueni recorded an album of solos by Sabicas, Niño Ricardo and Esteban de Sanlúcar (called simply "Maestros").
There are probably more examples I have missed or don't know about.
Everyone learns from listening, learning and playing the work of previous maestros.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations
It is not new at all - in fact it is the "original" old-world way from before the 1920s when commercial recording made machine-reproducing someone's interpretation possible.
Before that if you wanted to hear an old master's song or tune, you had to recreate it live, having practiced and memorized it note for note in order to give a faithful rendition out of respect.
Flamenco cante does a lot of this even now.
Apart from this (i.e. whether it is new or not), I think there are two errors in your claim - one a category error, the other an error of fact.
As Mark pointed out within his counter examples, it is not true that "PDL himself never played someone else's [work]".
As for the category error, it is in comparing official label commercial recordings to stuff people post on youtube. A more appropriate comparison would be either (a) official to official commercial recording, or (b) stuff on youtube versus stuff Paco as a kid played in his bedroom and for his family and friends while still learning, before his first commercial tour or recordings. Once you attempt that kind of comparison - easier with type (a) - I doubt you will have that many examples to be upset about; and even then - see Mark's counter-examples above.
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo)
I never knew that Paco played Montoya’s Rondeña. His version is precisely Don Ramon’s, note for note. Escudero’s version is close, but not an exact copy.
Escudero also recorded Esteban de Sanlucar’s “Castillo de Xauen.”
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
I think a lot of players early on played the music if the generation right before them as a way of doubling up on preserving it.
Paco Pena recorded large chunks of Ramon Montoya and Nino in order to leave clean copies because the originals are difficult to clean up.
People playing Sabicas today note for note is boring to me, do something new with it and don’t treat it like a museum piece. Now we have enough recordings of original artists. Much of the ‘can you play PDL note for note is technical masturbation and it’s boring.
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I think a lot of players early on played the music if the generation right before them as a way of doubling up on preserving it.
Also there is the technology involved. Manolo Sanlucar talking in an interview about spending his first wages from a tablao in Madrid in his first tape recorder back in the sixties. In the old days not everyone had access to even record players, now everyone has youtube, and can easily slow down recordings and learn note for note.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
I can name names, but I don't see the "point" in pointing fingers
Without naming names, maybe you could just clarify here whether you are talking about:
guitar students?
or hobbyists?
or professionals publicising their work as concert performers?
or professionals touting for students to teach?
I think all of these are likely to be different cases, and different reasons why they are posting covers of PDL or Sabicas to youtube.
Also Tomatito is said to have got the gig accompanying Camarón because he could "play like Paco de Lucía", and I think Paco Fernández went to Rafael Riqueni for lessons "because he could play Cueva del Gato". Riqueni also said of his album "Maestros" that he was asked to teach and studied those things he later recorded in order to teach to students.
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rasqeo77
I think I get what the OP is saying. Yes all the great players learned from and sometimes copied the previous generation but then they went on to create things for themselves. Some of these YouTube guitarists on the other hand play well but all they seem to do is copy.
I will have to find the original quote, it is in Guitar World magazine, but this subject was well handled by Steve Vai. They asked him about the modern day (at the time) yngwie clones that everybody was so concerned about. Remember Vai had to fill his shoes in Alcatraz. Vai said that he was already a self style musician in high school and some dude was copying him...same hair and clothes and guitar licks. It got to be too much when the guy tried to pick up his girlfriend!
But he goes on to say that all good guitar players start some where ...and that it is usually in copying INCORRECTLY the masters, we all develop our own style. So he added that there are kids trying to do their thing deliberately and that is great. But the yngwie “clones” are doing great as well. He said sometimes we have to “lose ourselves” in an other artist’s work in order to discover, truly, who WE are. In the end no matter how hard we try, we can’t help it but to be OURSELVES. Each and everyone of us is unique.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
*that picture*
Geez Stephen, for a moment there I thought you had posted a picture of my next door neighbour doing the gardening in her yoga pants!
From Ricardo:
quote:
He said sometimes we have to “lose ourselves” in an other artist’s work in order to discover, truly, who WE are. In the end no matter how hard we try, we can’t help it but to be OURSELVES. Each and everyone of us is unique.
Lot’s of truth here, even in the Classical world, or painting, or life...
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Paco Pena recorded large chunks of Ramon Montoya and Nino in order to leave clean copies because the originals are difficult to clean up.
Absolutely. If the originals are difficult to clean up in the studio and re-mastering is still not good enough, the re-maestroing is the way to go. Sometimes we really need that re-maestroing. So I have nothing against such recordings from the younger generation.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
Don't really see what's new tbh. And I'd chalk up the rest (whether you like the closer renditions or not) to personal taste and not some wider cultural issue.
I don't know whether it's true or not, but you sometimes hear that in the world of classical guitar there's some stiffness there, some pressure to not venture too far away from the original. It'd be a shame to create the mirror image of that by belittling those who choose to stay close to the original. Live and let live.
On a personal note, I find it much easier to adapt a single falseta, which I can then use in accompaniment or insert into another piece altogether, than to adapt an entire piece. It's an extremely high bar. I mean, if you think you can improve on La Barossa, be my guest... Good luck!! So at least part of it is just that people aren't just considering what they can contribute to a piece, but also the overall quality of the piece. There's some balance to be found between respect for the original and innovation. Opinions will vary as to where that balance should be, but all in all I think it's not a bad thing at all that there is respect for the original. It's a very limited comparison, but you only have to take a look at the widespread problems in Spain in restoration work (largely due to the lack of certification requirements) to see just how bad it can get when there is no respect at all for the original.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
1) so can I stand partially corrected in stating that PDL would have played others interpretations early on in his career, and not later, once he had forged his own concepts?
2) A good example is Samuelito, who is apparently a phenomenal player, but i don't see his original pieces up, and Grisha, also an amazing player, but again, I see him doing classical style "interpretation"
There's nothing wrong with classical music and "interpretation", but as we are essentially talking about an improvisatory folk music with each rendition being an interpretation of a sort of Platonic palo form, I see this as distinct.
Glad to read so many other ideas! I'm clearly being a bit narrow-minded here, but I'll stick with this stance for now, as it expresses something thematically important in my life.
And Estebanana, THAT DIRIGIBLE!!!
I can imagine the gaseous jokes such a hindenburg could provoke..
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
1. I honestly doubt it's a matter of just discarding the old once he was more advanced in his career. Riqueni's Maestros album is from 1994, when his career was already well on track. Those things stick with you, even after you've developed your own style.
2. Samuelito is a strange example, given that he has at least 2 solo albums, and as far as I know they're all his own compositions. I'd imagine if his albums aren't up on youtube it's just because the guy has to make a living...
The buleria from his most recent EP:
As for Grisha, I'm extremely grateful to players like him, virtuosos who keep a certain tradition alive. Dunno what to tell you other than that for some of us there's a big difference between that and listening to Sabicas on a vinyl. I'm just chalking it up to personal taste. If that's "dead" music to you, or "boring" like estebanana says, then fair enough: it takes all types. For some of us it's extremely valuable to still be able to hear that music live on in the hands of another performer. Anything you infer from there on out, about "authenticity" or whatever else, is IMHO most likely unwarranted.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
"dead" not equals "boring" - meaning "fixed" as in the interpretation being considered a composition in it's own right.
if you literally don't understand what I seem to be insanely insisting is the difference between a "classical" orthodoxy and a "living" (but not necessarily better, lol) folklore piece that each person accidentally bends into their own piece (a bit like asking random people to sing "happy birthday", I suppose) then I can accept: "This was always normal, the newfangled part is all in your imagination, Aaron"
But I sense that you understand what I mean, and dispute it, which is fine, and you certainly backed up your argument with your first point.
I was also unaware of Samuelitos original work, and that speaks volumes for the respect at least the Youtube Algorithm has for "Real Music" (dead people, vs dead music, lol) vs "Music Some Guy Made Up" (Who is still alive, how dare he!?)
(I don't think it's an attack upon performers to notice the prevalence of "covers" vs "originals" and wonder if this is a recent phenomenon.)
PS: Cool video of Samuelito's original work, interesting that falsetta work around 2:30 which I usually hear in Soleares...
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to wilson s)
That is a VERY good conversation.
I feel that Antonio's father was on the verge of pointing out that a composer could compose for other instruments or not be a good musician themselves... nearly... maybe I imagined that he would have said that, given a chance...
There are definitely different hats for different functions... respect for good players, by all means.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
But I sense that you understand what I mean, and dispute it
Sounds about right. At least I think I know what you're saying. ^^ I just tend to think it's much more of a spectrum than some people would like to think, much less of a binary. My personal view of how things evolved doesn't stretch all that far back. All I can say is that in the what? 10-15 years maybe? I've been in this environment, I haven't noticed any particular changes in that regard. I'll also say that it's happened to me more than once that, when I'd ask a teacher here to teach me a "classic" flamenco piece, their eyes would just light up. Like "finally someone who wants to learn something interesting". So, dunno, my personal experience is that flamenco guitarists (generalising of course) put very high value on certain set pieces, as they are. But I dunno. Tomato tomato. ^^
If it's about the prevalence of what shows up on Youtube, I wouldn't really know what to say. Maybe there is something to be said about the algorithm, but I'd imagine in Samuelito's case it's simply because he wants to protect his own work and doesn't put it up there in the first place. Like if you go on Yago Santos's page, he has a few full recordings, then a bunch of small 1-minute snippets for marketing purposes, but on the whole he's keeping his stuff off of Youtube. I just posted one of his here where he goes through one falseta. He'd done that in the past too, and he left it up for a while (don't remember, maybe a month or so) and then took it down. So dunno. That's what I was trying to say when I said "if his albums aren't up on youtube it's just because the guy has to make a living...". I'm not a pro so I honestly have no opinion on what's the best way for them to go about this, but I can certainly understand the rationale of wanting to keep most of your album material off of Youtube so that people will actually buy your album.
Yeah I loved that little reference around 2:30. Plus that impish face like "see what I just did there....aaaww c'mon you know what I'm doing, and you know it's cool" Dunno about any compendium showing the evolution of falsetas. There's a few heads I'd like to dissect where they have pretty big chunks of that knowledge. But medical ethics blablabla.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
we are essentially talking about an improvisatory folk music with each rendition being an interpretation of a sort of Platonic palo form
discuss....
are we?
is it?
I have often heard it said that flamenco is not a "folk" music in the sense that not everyone in a community will sing or dance or play, that it is more specialised than folk music, that it is an art music form.
It's interesting that when we make these kind of decisions, that it's "attach label here", we then interpret what we hear and see according to these labels, accepting this, rejecting that, expecting certain things etc.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
quote:
we are essentially talking about an improvisatory folk music with each rendition being an interpretation of a sort of Platonic palo form
discuss....
are we?
is it?
I have often heard it said that flamenco is not a "folk" music in the sense that not everyone in a community will sing or dance or play, that it is more specialised than folk music, that it is an art music form.
It's interesting that when we make these kind of decisions, that it's "attach label here", we then interpret what we hear and see according to these labels, accepting this, rejecting that, expecting certain things etc.
Interesting point. Would this not depend upon the context? While appreciators in a tablao may not be silent it's not quite the same as a neighborhood or family affair, in which one could join in palmas or other accompaniment.
What you point out is true, in that I precisely differentiate between individual idiosyncrasies in reciting an oral tradition using (platonic) musical forms that may INTEND to provide a strict template but always have a particular implementational flairs due to the human channels involved.
Is this an incorrect assumption? Perhaps. Does it have consequences? Absolutely, as you point out. I've been applying a very selective and slightly dishonest lens and framing to highlight what I think has some element of truth to it.
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