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RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations?   You are logged in as Guest
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Piwin

 

Posts: 3164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 2 2021 17:28:18
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2021 17:11:48
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I’m not interested in copies of guitar solos, which other people are free to play, I’m not against studying them. If I want to listen to a particular artists solo work, I’ll go right to the original artist.

I assume most people putting "copies" of solos on YouTube are just making a record of their own study process. Or teachers showing basically advertising their knowledge repertoire for students who want to study that material that they've heard on recordings. That's what most of the ones I have seen look like to me. With a few exceptions like Grisha and Javier Conde.

quote:

As for the falseta vs. learning a set piece, I don’t see it as a binary situation

I think lots of these kinds of discussions are not binary. The whole premise of the thread on creativity vs imitation I don't see as binary.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2021 18:32:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin

Well then it looks like we’re all more or less on the same page with regards to how guitarists learn.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2021 2:06:59
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Well then it looks like we’re all more or less on the same page with regards to how guitarists learn.

kind of a theme and variations

I often feel like I'm getting drawn into a binary argument when, for example, I post video of someone Spanish playing a PDL solo to make the point that it's not just English speaking players doing that. That doesn't mean I think or believe that all must play only PDL note for note, or that that is the only way to learn.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2021 14:49:44
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin

Let’s all be friends and remember what holy ever loving super d/ckhead “The Professor” was and how dishonest and lame he is.
That way we can all have a community enemy to bond us together in mutual disgust of the designated Hitler.

What does it really matter if someone plays a guitar solo note for note? It’s not going to cause anyone to die or something.

I bring up the Professor because he used to hawk his ( cough) guitars whilst playing along to a recording of Paco. Now that was super annoying and the we lived through it, so while it’s not my bag, it never has damaged my mind or raped my good taste. 😆 y

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2021 17:35:16
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin

More knowledge in this 40 minutes than 10000000 hours of self-serving Vicente Amigo Paco Clone "it's in the right key and scale step so here's a musical non-sequitur I shan't thematically develop" brainless finger noodle doodlery.




btw, I edited that Wikipedia entry myself, and most of my composition work is unrelated to electronic music but involves recording musical instruments and soundtrack work, if you were truly interested and not merely looking for tidbits to attack me with I would share some...
and I was born in Saint Paul MN, not San Francisco but I like to leave a little mystery. Never heard of Luso-Americano conceptually speaking? I am Português, I am American. I have no issues with the modo conjunctivo, Bill. (what south americans call the subjunctive)

I play lots of instruments: drums, bass, guitar, trumpet, keys,
I enjoy listening to all sorts of music and have heard flamenco since a young age. I'm not "new" to flamenco. I'm NEW on your forum, and hopefully soon leaving, If I can pull myself away from the scuffle here.
I stated some ideas and then it became suddenly a popular activity here to decide that I am a worthless piece of garbage one should not listen to.
This is, of course, a deliberately crafted lie you can believe at your own risk. The ideas stand on their own 2 legs, even if you succeed in knifing me in the back for my troubles, and that's precisely what I am experiencing here with eyes wide open.
I saw some people behave very cheaply.

I don't need self-inserting middle-men in between music/god and my ear/heart. no one does.

Some folks deliberately ignored the concept "genius is etymologically related to genii and muse and an inner spiritual voice" and insist upon "arrogant, thinks he is better than others"

I donºt claim any superiority, but Iºve had enough of this leg cutting and useless hero worship. Musical leaders should bring us closer to music, not put it on a pedestal far away.

Such folks need to stop insisting upon niggledy piggledy little derived rules that are untrue and need to just accept that this flamenco harmonical modal system is patrimonio mundial, but at the very least not try to claim exclusive purvey over what is most certainly not their patrimonio nor comprehended very well if all they got from it was noodly doodly and holy facial expressions like the innocent christ child.

enough of noodle doodlery and guitar heroism and more of Ninho Miguel! (false dichotomy, and doubtless the sentiment will be deliberately missed in pursuit of some perceived attack, I am surely aware of how Faustino Nunhez here loves PDL the best of all, personally, but he unravels the core of what flamenco essentially is, if you discount the functional folk songs that made their way in.)

ANYWAY, if one bypasses the unnecessary vitriol and fireworks produced as I drag some unwilling noses through some obvious lessons that didnºt need to be about nose-dragging but they insisted upon ballbreaking, one arrives at this simple point of all this

If one turns ones focus away from all the guitar virtuoso stuff, and gives a brief nod to Emilio de Moro (he arguably sang and played better than a million "straight" guys) and then looks at the vast majority of sung and danced flamenco that guitar is only a part of, one basically gets the idea that endless picado runs is not really very useful and that playing flamenco guitar has very little to do with this specialty modern arthouse guitar thing, that unfortunately or fortunately, due to Paco's widespread appeal and great compositional fusions, has become synonymous with flamenco.

And NO, Ricardo, I still don't accept that learning PDL songs is the key to learning flamenco, LOL. It's rather a side-endeavour, unrelated. worthwhile, no doubt. I find some of the solea gymnastics harder than fast picados, FWIW. I don't really like the sound of more than a 1-2 beats of picado run before i get vertigo and bored of plink plink. i like arpeggios and the sound of fluid finger gymnastics, in terms of arthouse guitar wonkery :)

by the way, I have nothing for sale. I rather like flamenco, as the tag states "aficionado".

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List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2021 22:51:16
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin

"arrogant newbie"
and "the nerve of the guy"

Well, I tried your front door and being kind, but some folks lied to me and some others tried to beat me up and some others rolled me for my wallet.

nice place.

Look, I don't need your flippin approval nor kudos, kiddos, and I'd really prefer to be polite and decent but i met knives here, so which is it?
snide back-knives one comment after another you you snivelling cowards?
(who has a knife to put in my back IS a snivelling coward, so wear that shoe only if you really want to, but don't blame me if you are one.)

I play any instrument I ever touched.
I play them by reacting to the way they react to my touch, breath, etc.
i react, respond and learn. I listen to other people playing it. I try to grok what that instrument is about. I fake it until I make it. I do make it. I can actually play, pretty OK, as you'll find out when I finally post some crappy video of me. I do even better accompanying singers. I play flamenco guitar with singers, imagine that! I don't make a living at it. I'm not great. I'm not known. I don't steal the show, I accompany. I've been told it's OK what I'm doing. My comments on being Português are simply to explain that actually, it's a cultural thing here. I live 1 hour from the Spanish border and flamenco is not something I access via this forum.
I came here for the luthierie. It's seriously one of the few places to see such a collection of interesting luthier ideas being shared openly!

Musical gatekeeping namedropping etc? not so much. I'm a stick in your eyes and you don't like me, got it.
I don't need this experience either. It's not enjoyable being your forum punching bag, but i feel the need to correct all these false pictures of me. I shouldn't. It's clearly a strategy of "kill the messenger" and Stephens snark below demonstrates even more of that... yes, ignore what I say, just focus on how the outsider needs a beating...

The specific quote in which I initially state: "I am a musical genius" has me stating the following: "I am suprised that no one scoffed at this statement" and an explanation that the ETYMOLOGY OF the word GENIUS is about a person that follows an inner spirit or intuition, not about technical superiority in the outside world, but you prefer to call me an arrogant bastard instead of comprehending the fact that sound is a primary experience that is pre-lingual and is one of the earliest activated senses in an organism!
When I state this, i get derision, but then will get derision anyway from people who believe that you learn music when you learn ABOUT music.
Have a hack at my soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/aaronpeacock
if you really want to bother stalking me, instead of focusing on a particular decade and genre I had some good luck and travel experiences via.

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List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2021 23:07:17
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin

if you are here to post a snarky comment that basically implies "Arão is **** and arrogant" etc... consider that you are an army attacking me and I am one little guy and I've had enough of snarky derogatory comments.
If i didn't have some lying fake guitar teachers here trying to insert themselves between me and music I wouldn't have had to declare my absolute total devotion to music sound and how no one can get between me and music...
"yeah I can play guitar, I can even play flamenco guitar"
Ok? somehow this thread became about ME...
that's kind cheap and mean, folks! not cool :D
I see that. You don't fool me.
MEAN BAD PEOPLE BEING BAD!!!!! got it?

I'm not on any drugs nor slipping off any rails nor likely to face any consequences for arguing with you on this forum, shy of being kicked off said forum.

Mark2, that Sarah Palin quote belies the reality that absolutely zero percent of the active Spanish flamenco community is participating on this forum nor cares what THE RULES OF FLAMENCO a bunch of foreigners have established are!
fun fact!
Seriously, Portuguese to Spanish is pretty direct, but inserting English in the middle? Why? who would? Do you think that we need a 3rd party involved? How on earth could you turn it around to where I am sounding odd to state that from Portugal this English Speaking Forum is an odd place to get flamenco info from? Most people here would agree with me, sorry.


Me? I'm not claiming any musical superiority here, but I can play pretty much any instrument to some degree and it's not based on trying to impress people nor strut and pose but based upon love of music.
I hear the notes ringing for hours after they play and that aint tinnitus.
I remember certain intervals in a piece of music and they way they made me feel in that context and they roll over and over again in my mind.
That's normal for a musically minded person! I'm not unique in this.

I was born into a musical family and we make music and I consider any attempts to belittle that to be against the practice of humans making music!
You want to be GATEKEEPERS!??? ok, but not on my turf! Not in my house!
I understood flamenco from the first second I heard it.
It's rather visceral, don't you think?
Am I special amazing and unusual for this? NO!
YOU are the weirdos insisting that it's difficult to comprehend!!!!


Music is a HUMAN BIRTHRIGHT, and harmonic structures are directly apprehendible.

WORDS are merely a secondary artefact! One uses words and theory to communicate with others, but MUSIC is inherently understood or NOT.

Prokofiev! His music is so deep and yet the smallest child can understand his themes and how they develop.
(when I hear Vicente Amigo, i hear NOTHING, i hear empty noodly doodly with no sense of a story or musical purpose, for example...)

SO, I think that besides this constant stream of personal attacks upon the messenger, I am here still bugging you to face the music...



AMAZING TO ME that some folks will take the time to dig up internet articles about me but won't take the time to read the words I wrote in my posts.

Why do I have this constant feeling that nothing I write is actually being read for comprehension, but merely skimmed for straw-man-quotation basis?

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List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2021 23:10:09
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin

But now really, what sort of positive future discussion can we have here after such shameful vitriol?

Not much.

I don't like several specific humans right now on this forum, and I'm quite sure that the feeling is mutual.

The thing is, this thread precisely documents the points at which it became about my credibility or lack thereof and not addressing the alleged topic.

I think that it's pretty self-evident and I do believe that I conducted myself relatively well, given the goading and gameplay going on here.

There's some funny little Gestalt Group Games going on here, and I shan't be the last to encounter the Foro snares and daggers, I suspect.

But really, someone remove my account already! I'll just pick up the glove again the next time someone makes another snarky attack...
This is pointless...

I'm tired of trying to make an obvious point to deliberate obfuscators and the forum is enraged over my defiance of their strange cult-like power games... I want out, you want me out. get me outta here already...

but really, enough about "me"... (and about the foro, Drama is a town in Greece, by the way)

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2021 23:49:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin

First there was The Professor, then Ruphus, and now may I introduce the mother of all drama queens- Capt. Peacock
The valorous and always correct Capt who fights to avenge flamenco from the aggressive Rommels of the flamenco foro.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2021 0:29:30
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

First there was The Professor, then Ruphus, and now may I introduce the mother of all drama queens- Capt. Peacock
The valorous and always correct Capt who fights to avenge flamenco from the aggressive Rommels of the flamenco foro.



So, did you watch the lecture from Faustino then? and did you decide that I'm making an invalid point as to the viscerally intuitively knowable and ultimately highly improvisable harmonic structure that flamenco is built upon?

Because all i saw so far from y'all was focused on ad-hominem attacks upon me and much of the drama is contained in precisely written records above. you personally flipped out at least twice here in this thread, Stephen, and I was actually sort of seeing you as an ideological ally here initially until the group think of the forum was too strong and you decided and any taint of electronica in a portfolio of a lifes work means "throw him away"... well, I suppose I can accept disappointment.

I always found Rob F quite funny, and I'm not sure why he has decided that something is wrong with me.

I particularly treasure Richard Jernigan's amazing anecdotes and I've enjoyed almost every thread where he tells stories.

I've seen some other folks, Like Konstantine, who only showed up here to be unkind and dismissive and join in a group attack which didn't require more "yeah, get him boss!" henchmen, but he never one time wrote a response to the musical ideas being discussed.

Piwin, to his credit, has been very patient about explaining his point of view, that I don't ultimately agree with.

Ricardo, I'm having reactions to your insistence upon "schooling me" or "showing me the way" when I can see in full color just fine already.
I'm having this reaction to many guitar players here, as I'm seeing them confusing their technical skill with musical knowledge, which perhaps were both acquired simultaneously.
Yes, I hear Guitar-like mimicry in Diego Amador, but do you hear the vocal mimicry, the blue note, in guitar playing?
I'm not questioning the quitar players expertise, but if a guitar player says untrue statements that are designed to place gatekeeping activities where they don't belong, I object!

But Stephen, fundamentally, if you think it productive to indicate to folks that I am someone to be dismissed, ridiculous, mad, comparable to the Devil Himself, Ruben Diaz!, that is precisely an ad-hominem attack.

All y'all who fault me for getting upset at constant personal attacks and a refusal to address what I wrote in the 3 large comments prior to this one and Stephens informative post should perhaps consider this very statement.

"oh bad Arão" is not the topic of this thread, actually...

I'll admit, being against an an entire forum except Rasgeo77 and Chester is a bit pointless, but it's where we are at.

But this crap about me being a button pusher, Ricardo, take a hike buddy.
I'll post a video of me playing my bulerias if it will get you all to back off that stuff. Metallurgy? I don't think I claimed to be an expert. I think I made the point that you begin a lifetime of blacksmith learning by learning the principles of the carbon-iron temperature graph.
Austentite, Martensite, Ferrite, Carbide, etc.
Programming computers? I made a living at it for years, so yeah, I know a fair bit about it. Music theory? I know a fair amount, jazz classical 20th-century, etc. I studied it. It's for the purpose of communicating with musicians and composers. Sheet music, jazz "charts", tablature, all for the purpose of communication.
the music itself is the primary medium.
you hear music, it tells you stories.
you can learn about the ways it tells you stories, but the experience of the music is the primary resource.

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2021 0:49:31
 
RobF

Posts: 950
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

I always found Rob F quite funny, and I'm not sure why he has decided that something is wrong with me

Listen Aaron, I haven’t made any definitive pronouncements about your mental health or your habits or anything. I have been asking people to consider that there could be circumstances at play that are unknown to them and to be tolerant. I have no idea what’s going on with you, I’ve wished you the best on this thread more than once.

Part of me thinks it’s possible you’re only here because of Rosalía and you are taking the piss out of the Foro for the benefit and entertainment of some of your trance friends. But thinking that is not being very generous on my part, especially if you are in a tough space right now. For sure, I don’t see this as a “one against the world” situation. You’ve had negative interactions with a small sampling of the membership here, I don’t see how it’s helpful or necessary to turn it into some kind of epic battle against an entire entity.

Again, I wish you no ill, and if your request for an account closure is honoured then there will be an element of loss to the Foro, as well as to you. It’s too bad it didn’t work out. But, really, fighting isn’t our default state, although I guess it can appear that way sometimes.

I’ll delete this response if or when your account gets removed, so I don’t end up looking like I’m showboating on this debacle. As Mark said, this whole thread makes me kind of sad.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2021 1:21:31
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1251
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin

Hello, Aaron. I have read this thread almost in full. You asked an important question, and it was interesting to read this discussion.

I am sorry that you don't feel comfortable on this forum. There are great people here and lots of knowledge. Things can get heated once in a while, but it is the way things are on the internet. We are all flamenco lovers here, no matter what our level is or where we are in our journey.

I see why you ask about learning and playing pieces verbatim. I also totally understand why Ricardo and others see the importance of doing this to learn this style.

We don't have choose confrontation over civilized argument, and it isn't too late.

What I would be interested to read is what is your alternative to learning flamenco guitar the way Ricardo suggests. I would appreciate it if you went into detail and, perhaps, provided a concrete example.

Thank you!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2021 1:31:01
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Grisha

quote:

Hello, Aaron. I have read this thread almost in full. You asked an important question, and it was interesting to read this discussion.

I am sorry that you don't feel comfortable on this forum. There are great people here and lots of knowledge. Things can get heated once in a while, but it is the way things are on the internet. We are all flamenco lovers here, no matter what our level is or where we are in our journey.

I see why you ask about learning and playing pieces verbatim. I also totally understand why Ricardo and others see the importance of doing this to learn this style.

We don't have choose confrontation over civilized argument, and it isn't too late.

What I would be interested to read is what is your alternative to learning flamenco guitar the way Ricardo suggests. I would appreciate it if you went into detail and, perhaps, provided a concrete example.

Thank you!



wow! thank you, Grisha, I am honored!

That is a very earnest way, and I humbly offer full respect for your thoughtful comment. I will think about what you say and try to respond completely in some time.

I am completely amazed by the gentlemanly and kind manner you reached out to me right now here. I immediately feel softer and foolish for prideful obstinacy.

I pledge my best effort in an earnest and yet respectful response.

I comprehend what you say.

Thank you, once again.

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2021 1:41:19
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

Because all i saw so far from y'all was focused on ad-hominem attacks upon me and much of the drama is contained in precisely written records above. you personally flipped out at least twice here in this thread, Stephen, and I was actually sort of seeing you as an ideological ally here initially until the group think of the forum was too strong and you decided and any taint of electronica in a portfolio of a lifes work means "throw him away"... well, I suppose I can accept disappointment.


I don’t make allies for the sake of creating a divisive atmosphere, if you think you’re important enough to have people back your position against others who disagree with you, you’re missing the point of this experience. I’m neither for you or against you, although I may agree in part with things you believe or know about flamenco. My sarcastic attitude towards your attitude comes out because you are toxic in a non redemptive way and I don’t think you get a pass fit for it. You can tune up your attitude or leave, either way I’m not concerned.

I’m interested in the aspect of flamenco that’s inventive structurally or compositionally in the way it differs from classical music; flamenco is large part based on creating an individual voice within a set structure, classical music is based on ( at this time in history and in general) playing music that’s through composed from start to finish. I respect both approaches for different reasons and flamenco is not that interesting to me until a guitar player individuates. I’m not a good guitarist, but I’ve picked the brains of some of the best in the business, gringos and Spaniards, gitanos. I’ve spent a lot of time with master guitarists like Ricardo, Jason, David Serva, Chusco, Moya, the del Gastor clan and others. My opinions are formed by hundreds of hours of hanging out with these guys and talking about flamenco cante and guitar. I also know a lot of top pro dancers and have asked them a gazillion questions and watched how they work. I know a little about a little about flamenco. It’s enough knowledge to distinguish a poser and a loudmouth from people who have deeper knowledge than I do.


Don’t be a Ruphus clone. Someone can explain that to you. And if you can’t take well deserved sarcasm, maybe check into program to see if you’re a narcissist. If you think some foro participants are ‘gateway keeping’ bear in mind that before you came by a diverse opinion community existed just fine. People may disagree with you, but you and everyone else on the Foro should not conflate or confuse those who set boundaries up to protect the group from your toxicity and divisive maneuvering with gateway keeping.

I’m done with this thread.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2021 3:27:24
 
Escribano

Posts: 6146
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

But really, someone remove my account already! I'll just pick up the glove again the next time someone makes another snarky attack...
This is pointless...


We are not gatekeepers, it is just an internet forum. At this current time in the World, it may appear more important than it really is.

If you want your account deleted, send me a PM.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2021 10:42:18
 
Escribano

Posts: 6146
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock

This thread has dragged on long enough. It is now locked.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2021 10:43:15
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