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devilhand

 

Posts: 1097
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Which technique is this? 

Antonio Mairena is singing Mirabras accompanied by Manuel Morao. Very cool sounding part at 1:56, 4:25 and 5:56. Sounds like alzapua. But who knows.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2020 22:19:34
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

It is a very personalized technique of his that he does in every palo. I learned a siguiriyas version and put it in compas for folks that want to learn it (cuz most of the time his concept of compas is very push pull with this technique and the math doesn’t always work). This was many years back and I have it a lot better now, this was after I first figured it out as it’s very tricky.



Here is a solea version I made up based on the same technique:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2020 2:52:08
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

This was many years back and I have it a lot better now, this was after I first figured it out as it’s very tricky.

Awesome. Somehow I knew that only you could answer this question.
I think what makes it tricky is the ability to coordinate super fast movements of 3 different fingers. Mostly at the same time. The thumb is playing alzapua while the index finger is striking treble strings and the ring finger is doing golpe. One more technique to master.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2020 20:42:19
 
orsonw

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

The younger generation Diego del Morao and Pepe del Morao, use it too:

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2020 21:32:36
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

I remember teaching this siguiriyas technique at elite guitarist but it seems only the solea part is available for free?

quote:

The thumb is playing alzapua while the index finger is striking treble strings and the ring finger is doing golpe.


Actually alzapúa implies using the thumb as a pick so the upstroke is involved. Here there is no up stroke with the thumb.. the thumb drags across two notes where the second one takes on the beat feeling, and the index only plays the open first string. Although that is 3 notes, triplet, he doesn’t always have a 3 or 6 feeling (like what I do in the solea above). The siguiriyas is 6’s and 9’s mainly, p-i-p, p-i-p, etc. When I do the golpe there is a tricky change of p-P golpe-i....or hammer pull then i-i where i is up-down filling in the triplet.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2020 18:43:47
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Actually alzapúa implies using the thumb as a pick so the upstroke is involved. Here there is no up stroke with the thumb.. the thumb drags across two notes where the second one takes on the beat feeling, and the index only plays the open first string.

As for the thumb the other day I thought the same. Thanks for mentioning the 1st open string because I wanted to ask about this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 28 2020 13:47:38
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to orsonw

quote:

The younger generation Diego del Morao and Pepe del Morao, use it too:


Thanks for the video. You appear out of nothing and post useful stuff like this. It happened many times. Keep it up!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 28 2020 22:17:48
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

Here's an interesting way of plucking the strings with the index and middle finger at 0:08-0:23 and 0:31-0:40. Looks like he's pressing down the strings with his fingertips which leads to a strange way of planting. Is it technically correct? Or is this another personalized technique?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2021 20:47:02
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

Yes some personalized “sweeping” arpegios instead of a-m-i.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 3:19:00
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

At 18:49-18:55 one can clearly hear golpe. Which finger does golpe here? The ring or middle finger? To me it looks like it's the ring finger.

Btw, at 11:36 a clear demonstration of how rest stroke and free stroke picado would differ in sound. Visually there's a difference. But close your eyes and listen. Acoustically no difference?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2021 20:29:36
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

Ring does golpe (possible that pinky joins it but it is not visible so can’t be sure).

No the run sounds like tremolo and it is so aggressive that it makes the open b string ring out the entire time....very different than apoyando detached sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2021 22:11:12
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Ring does golpe (possible that pinky joins it but it is not visible so can’t be sure).

Indeed it's the ring finger. It was irritating first. Because later at 19:04 he plays golpe with the middle finger.

I guess a single treble string is accented with ring finger golpe. When he plays pulgar downstroke - at least 2 strings (bass or treble strings or both bass and treble) are accented -, then middle finger golpe is used. But I'm not sure one can generalise this rule.

quote:

No the run sounds like tremolo and it is so aggressive that it makes the open b string ring out the entire time....very different than apoyando detached sound.

Do you think he uses ima fingers before im picado?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2021 13:00:00
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Do you think he uses ima fingers before im picado?


No. I KNOW he uses a-m-i-a-m-i etc...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2021 17:19:39
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

No. I KNOW he uses a-m-i-a-m-i etc...

Is Paco using ami tirando here at 7:46?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2021 18:23:13
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

Yes

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2021 13:41:01
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Here's an interesting way of plucking the strings with the index and middle finger at 0:08-0:23 and 0:31-0:40. Looks like he's pressing down the strings with his fingertips which leads to a strange way of planting. Is it technically correct? Or is this another personalized technique?




At 15:26-15:32 I've seen this technique for the second time now. El Chalo uses it in the video above. According to Mr. Marlow it should be played as descending ami arpeggio. What are the pros and cons of using this technique instead of ami arp?

Anyhow I proudly accept it as a new technique. It deserves a suitable name. Any idea?
Who knows maybe this technique is a real flamenco guitar technique like pulgar and was replaced by arpeggio - a classical guitar technique. Btw, does anyone know who's singing and playing?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2021 22:30:04
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

The ami replacement technique in the first video is called “arrastre”, normally used as the return stroke of a big 6 note chord rather than a triad the way your guy uses it.

In the second video what the guy is doing at 15:26 is called “Tremolo”, he is hitting multiple strings is all the difference is from how you probably think of it. Anyway if you practice what he is doing you will eventually get the correct flamenco tremolo as well, you just target individual strings and bass notes are normally only one or two notes struck as a rest like that at a time. Honestly you want to finger the left hand shapes for tremolo with the actual intent if hitting multiple strings anyway, either accidentally or on purpose doesn’t matter. Then you later close the gap of time between the ending thumb stroke and the starting i stroke.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2021 18:36:01
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo

Arrastre and tremolo?
The way I see it, there's a slight difference but in the end both are the same technique. In the first video it's played more expressive and faster, in the second video slower and softer. I would say it's an old fashioned technique which is rarely used nowadays. The reason is maybe descending arp is more superior and sounds cleaner. But I like the way this technique sounds.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2021 21:10:47
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

I slowed down both videos and examined their finger movements. That's what I got. (a) is a general way of executing it. (b) and (c) are a slightly different version of it. To me both are the same technique even though they are executed a bit differently.

1st video



2nd video



quote:

The ami replacement technique in the first video is called “arrastre”, normally used as the return stroke of a big 6 note chord rather than a triad the way your guy uses it.

Look at the finger movements in the first video. This is obviously not arrastre. To me it looks like a lazy/dirty way to play ami + p.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (3)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2021 14:05:45
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

Arrastre is when you drag a finger across the strings to arpeggiate a chord. Most often the ring finger but you can use any finger you want to sweep across. This guy is doing triads instead of big chords.

Time to let you know that you ask great questions and have good observations, however your insistence in arguing AGAINST the correct answers as provided by those that have more experience, goes far beyond the normal frustration level of internet communication. I lately feel reluctant to answer back amigo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2021 14:26:55
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

however your insistence in arguing AGAINST the correct answers as provided by those that have more experience

You were right about ami replacement above. But this is not arrastre I've seen so far. One should look at the whole picture and call it for example the 'ami followed by pulgar' replacement technique. One thing comes to my mind now is ami part will sound differently because of apoyando sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2021 14:48:21
 
estebanana

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

quote:

however your insistence in arguing AGAINST the correct answers as provided by those that have more experience

You were right about ami replacement above. But this is not arrastre I've seen so far. One should look at the whole picture and call it for example the 'ami followed by pulgar' replacement technique. One thing comes to my mind now is ami part will sound differently because of apoyan


Listen up Youngblood,
Ricardo knows a billion times more about this stuff than you do. Stop arguing with a master. He knows and you don’t. Period. End of discussion. Work on knowing who you are and listen to those who already know who they are.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2021 16:38:44
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Ricardo knows a billion times more about this stuff than you do.

Of course he does. No one questioned it.

quote:

Arrastre is when you drag a finger across the strings to arpeggiate a chord. Most often the ring finger but you can use any finger you want to sweep across. This guy is doing triads instead of big chords.

Yes. The first sentence is the definition of arrastre. But playing arrastre on treble strings is true only in theory. I want to see someone doing it. Anyone care to post a video showing this?

Anyhow, what makes this way of playing special is all 3 treble strings are played apoyando. Descending ami arp won't sound like this. To my taste calling it a new technique is a bit exaggerated. But this has its own sound and is worth mastering. What surprises me is it has never been taught or shown. I don't know if someone plays this way on rito y geografia series. If someone has a video, please post it here.

As for the second video, one can say it's tremolo. Very weird version of tremolo. The pure tremolo will sound cleaner I guess.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2021 17:41:42
 
Escribano

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Of course he does. No one questioned it.


Except that you did, as usual

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2021 18:08:40
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Very weird version of tremolo.


Standard flamenco technique .... you need to get a teacher or everyday you will find a new guy inventing the wheel on youtube.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2021 0:08:05
 
estebanana

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

If you master Morao’s right hand mechanismo, ya only need three chords por siguiriya, and maybe a Gm and occasionally an E7

Just saying

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2021 7:42:53
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

If you master Morao’s right hand mechanismo, ya only need three chords por siguiriya, and maybe a Gm and occasionally an E7

Just saying

I'll take a look at it. My left hand wrist hates that Siguiriya pattern in por medio.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2021 23:24:13
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

What a strange way to play picado at 2:39. I've never seen anyone doing like this. Or is it 3 finger picado?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2021 23:27:15
 
orsonw

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand

quote:


What a strange way to play picado at 2:39. I've never seen anyone doing like this. Or is it 3 finger picado?


Looks like it could be picado using I A?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2021 9:49:42
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:


What a strange way to play picado at 2:39. I've never seen anyone doing like this. Or is it 3 finger picado?


Looks like it could be picado using I A?


Yep, Manuel Morao also did that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2021 12:20:52
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