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ernandez R

Posts: 215
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

Rasguoe, three to six beat help 

Rasguoe, three to six beat

Almost two years and I’m able to make a nice well separated three finger Rasguoe. Well mostly, my model for secusse is Andy C, in his playing videos his are always clear and defined, not rushed. I battled with too slow or too fast.
So, now I want to roll six consecutive beats without the aperant space between the i and the following a. I watched a Peppee Ramiro video some time ago where he explained pulling the a finger back into position, in a rolling action with the m following, as the i begins its downward hit.
I’ve also tried a couple sessions where I started with the m to move the mental separation of the two groups of three.
So, looking for ideas helpful hints etc for some old hands and a mind that doesn’t work as smooth as it used to.

Thanx,

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 20:10:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

It is not quite clear what exact finger pattern you want to do to make 6 notes.

1. a-m-i, a-m-i, etc all down?
2. i up, a i down, i-a-i, etc
3. a-m-i, i up a i down, etc
4. a-m-i, i up a m, i down stop.

?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 23:06:31
 
ernandez R

Posts: 215
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

It is not quite clear what exact finger pattern you want to do to make 6 notes.

1. a-m-i, a-m-i, etc all down?
2. i up, a i down, i-a-i, etc
3. a-m-i, i up a i down, etc
4. a-m-i, i up a m, i down stop.

?


Ricardo,

Your number 1:
ami, ami, all down

Trying to keep the change between the i and the second a seemless. Guessing another year or so of slow patient practice.

Usually followed by i up.

Using the two resguoe back to back on counts 7-8, 9-10

Just using simple E/Amin shaped cords first few positions. I do a lot of practicing with strings muted and when my nails get too thin I rest my thumb on the forth string and just hit the nylon strings until my nails grow back.

Thanx,

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 23:34:51
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

Ricardo,

Your number 1:
ami, ami, all down

Trying to keep the change between the i and the second a seemless. Guessing another year or so of slow patient practice.

Usually followed by i up.


Ok, well don’t work too hard, I have not ever seen it used once. Well I lie, I did know a guy that tried to do it but could not so I worked on it for him cuz he insisted it was beautiful. But frankly surprised why you would be working on it at all, it’s what I would call “obscure”. The closest to it is juan Serrano pattern with pinky which is a little easier. The idea is to put i on the beat so you can roll any number, not end on an up stroke. In fact the point would be to have uniform downstrokes. I abandoned so many of these after I observed maestros never using them, instead making interesting use of double stroke i down then up in combo with the other fingers only going down.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 5:35:28
 
ipolit

Posts: 9
Joined: Jul. 1 2020
From: Veliko Tarnovo, BG

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

If you like it you can try
a,m,i,i-up,a,i - this is relatively easy for 6 beats without interruption. With I-up twist and other fingers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 11:14:27
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 662
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

What about playing triplet rasgueado 2 times?

m down i down i up -> stronger because m and i fingers flicked out from the thumb
a down i down i up -> softer because the thumb is not involved

Source: O. Herrero - Guitarra Flamenca Paso A Paso Vol. I

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 19:49:42
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3111
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

ami, ami, all down


I am wondering where you got this from? Have you seen someone doing it, or been instructed to do it by someone? Or heard something and tried to work out how to emulate the sound and come up with this? Please share the source, cuz I would be very curious to see/hear it.

In 25+ years I have never heard of anyone doing that rasgueado (but always ready to learn something new). You don't say what palo you are trying to put this into, but I guess as it's triplets on 7,8,9,10 it would be Bulerías?

For 7,8,9,10 in Bulerías I would typically use abanico P-A-I (thumb up, A-finger down, I-finger down), or abanico P-MA-P (P-up, MA-down, P-down - AKA abanico Marote), or I-A-I (I-up, A-down, I-down), or the Moraíto version where he starts A-M-I (all down) and then I-A-I (as the previous one); all of these end with the first digit up on the final beat (P in the abanico versions, I in the others). You can also use M-I-I instead of A-I-I but I never got on with that one....

Sometimes when I am playing long sessions of dance classes I experiment with using more or different fingers to relieve/vary the workload on fingers a bit - to that end I also use A-M-I-I (down, down, down, up) as a triplet, spreading the 4 mechanism over the beats. Ffor this I would start after 6, so A-M-down are on the "and-a" after 6 and the first I-down falls on 7, with final I-up stroke on 10. Also the typical 5-stroke C-A-M-I-I (down, down, down, down, up) works starting with C-down on 7, and finishing I-up on 10.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 20:09:56
 
rasqeo77

 

Posts: 82
Joined: May 23 2018
 

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to mark indigo

I seem to recall Ruben Diaz teaching this (ami, ami) in one of his YouTube videos. I remember thinking it was pointless at the time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 21:54:44
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3111
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to rasqeo77

quote:

I seem to recall Ruben Diaz teaching this (ami, ami) in one of his YouTube videos. I remember thinking it was pointless at the time.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 22:42:10
 
ernandez R

Posts: 215
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

Oy, I don't know wether to laugh or cry...

Thanx gents for trying.

Seems I have failed completely to describe something so basic, that I've seen and heard played by every player in every payo: two or three Rasguoes played in succession, you know, thumb against/under the six string, fingernails touching inside of thumb, brisk flick of fingers: a, m, i, a, m, i... all down.

Andy Culpepper has a couple excellent examples of this in the videos of him playing his guitars, slow clear concise strikes, these are my goal.

Like I mentioned at the top of the thread there is a Pepe Ramero video, he is teaching a student, or rather a series of students, and during one segment he describes then shows how a he strings two or more Rasguoe together by rolling up the a finger and staring to roll up the m finger as the i finger is going down so the a and i are ready to strum the next rasguoe. The effect is more like a smooth drum roll but mine sounds like a galloping Rocinante.

The beat 7-8, 9-10 being where the two are played back to back but less seamless as an accent falls in the 8 and 10 beat. There was another video, wish I could recall who, and yes Mark this would be as triplets in a Bulerías,... I think.

I'm not even thinking Payo at this stage, just trying to get some basic strumming patterns conquered.

Ah, this might be one of the tutorial videos:


My original question is strategies for making the rasguoe grouping more seamless.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2020 1:34:47
 
rasqeo77

 

Posts: 82
Joined: May 23 2018
 

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

That video doesn’t show what you are describing (ami, ami continuous roll). Are you sure you’re not thinking of amii, amii continuous roll. That is very common.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2020 7:56:28
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3111
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

something so basic, that I've seen and heard played by every player in every payo: two or three Rasguoes played in succession, you know, thumb against/under the six string, fingernails touching inside of thumb, brisk flick of fingers: a, m, i, a, m, i... all down.


in 25+ years I have never seen it like that. Noone in Encuentro videos does that. amii yes, mii or imi, aii or iai, camii, but not amiami.

the video you posted is not continuous, it is ami landing on the beat - pause - do it again. Nearly all players make it continuous by adding an upstroke with i before repeating, i.e. amii repeat.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2020 13:55:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to mark indigo

Yes he is not understanding the index comes up before the a finger goes out. Mystery solved



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2020 19:43:16
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3111
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to Ricardo

great face at 0:27

ooops!

so it's a standard 5-stroke camii (the last i-up) rasgueado after all....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2020 20:52:46
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 662
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

As mentioned above, ami all down doesn't exist. Cami all down is old school but worth learning I guess. Grisha demonstrates different rasgueado types in this video. The first one is cami all down.



This video really helped me. The best video about rasgueado in general.



Yes, the tricky part is to close the gap between i up and a down. I hope you'll find your answer here, particularly the first link. Very useful information there.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=91529&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=rasgueo&tmode=&smode=&s=#91529

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=92016&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=continuous&tmode=&smode=&s=#92354

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2020 20:24:54
 
ernandez R

Posts: 215
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

Thanx guys!

A lot of good info in the two threads the D hand linked to.

Wish I had started playing when I was 18... and not 55.

Looks like I'll be slowing back down and getting that i tucked back in before the next a hit. Focus on relaxing the other fingers and more separation. Seems I've been leaving my fingers extended and tensed more then I thought.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2020 23:20:21
 
JasonM

Posts: 1435
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

Just take more gabapentin and eat some junk food. Then you won’t care. That’s what I do lol!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2020 2:42:15
 
ernandez R

Posts: 215
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

Just take more gabapentin and eat some junk food. Then you won’t care. That’s what I do lol!



Jason,

Oh hell no, even after cutting back over a couple weeks to one Gabbapentin pill a day, there were three days of full on junky withdrawal. The first day I ask the Boss, wtf is wrong with me, the second day it hit me, the third day was ugly, then it tapered down to a dull roar during the next ten days or so. Hadn't thought of it sense until you brought it up. Thanx ;)

I still have the neropathy but it doesn't keep me up like it did, I did melatonin for a couple weeks to help get my sleep cycle back to normal, can't just get up out of bed and start playing though there were many nights around month four where I hobbled out to the shop and played.

Walking 45 min a day now and I can play sitting up for about 20 min before mm foot turns red and starts too swell up like a turnip. It's getting better. Sad thing is I can't sit or stand vary long and my PT takes it all out of me so no shop time, heck I did a rosette and glued on a top when they were still giving me happy pills. I still do most of my playing on my back.

Foot is mostly angry by 4:00 pm, Girl starts dinner and we share a glass of wine and I usually have a second which tames the beast and loosens me up and I play for an hour or two; the wine helps loosen up the fingers as noted on another Foro thread.

Junk food? Any idea how many pounds if muscle I've converted to fat post moose? Not telling but I'm just about rocking a B cup. Put out the directive yesterday: no dairy, no processed white flower, mostly vegan. Don't want to die cause I'm fat! Saving myself for a wild Alaskan creature.

Bless my partners hart, i drug out an older 21" iMac last week, set up a Skyp account, had tentatively set up some lessons, she thought a dark purple cover would look nice as a cover there in our greenhouse sun room with the sun shinning on the back, you know well it was turned on... Cooked the HD... Click of death... Oh ya, its 2020, only square on my will this year ever end bingo card not checked off is earth shattering asteroid and ED.

Lessons, I don't need no stinking lessons...


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2020 4:03:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Yes, the tricky part is to close the gap between i up and a down. I hope you'll find your answer here, particularly the first link. Very useful information there.


He shows everything correctly but the problem is there is a sort of lower limit threshold of speed where if you practice slower, it is not the same mechanics feeling going on. One finger at a time is not what I feel when going fast. So I personally have identified that cross over point speed wise and try to get my students to start there with it. The key is the sequence you learn first. Starting i up is what you want to do so ring finger down is the first note after the beat...and you would apply the same to the pinky if you want the 5 stroke. So i up a down m down i down....you can stop there and work on that as a triplet stopping on the next beat. This is a standard gallop used for compas of sevillanas fandangos tangos etc....oddly many students don’t learn it early on they do substitute patterns such as eami, or just ami, and miss out on what the correct way prepares you for (continuous rolls). And working on continuous rolls separately as Pepe shows, many students hit a speed wall very quickly and never get past it.

At 2:50



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2020 15:09:52
 
ipolit

Posts: 9
Joined: Jul. 1 2020
From: Veliko Tarnovo, BG

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

I like very much how Luciano Ghosn explains things and his attitude to all he is doing.
It is rare to find an english speaking tutor with such passion.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2020 12:12:50
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 662
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

This is a standard gallop used for compas of sevillanas fandangos tangos etc....oddly many students don’t learn it early on they do substitute patterns such as eami, or just ami, and miss out on what the correct way prepares you for (continuous rolls).

Thanks for pointing this out.
Maximum how many amii or iami in succession is considered as normal in flamenco? I ask this because after playing iami 3 or 4 times in a row my amii rasgueado starts to sound unevenly spaced meaning that the gap between i up and a down returns.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 20:19:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Maximum how many amii or iami in succession is considered as normal in flamenco?


Several compases. See here at 0:46



Or here at 1:50



A full 1-10 phrase is a good start.

If you are finding that Cepero is unusually fast here or that you can go fast but not so long, it might be you are trying to load and flick the fingers off the thumb or palm.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 20:39:46
 
JasonM

Posts: 1435
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

I’ve always had issues with : i up - a down - i down triplet continuous rasgueado. It always feels like I’m putting strain on my tendons (like in the back of my hand) , and if I relax it just sounds really weak and not snappy. But imi or amii never a problem.



quote:

Walking 45 min a day now and I can play sitting up for about 20 min before mm foot turns red and starts too swell up like a turnip. It's getting better.


That’s good to hear. I’ve heard of others having issue with titration off gabapentin. Everyone’s just a little different.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2020 17:17:07
 
kitarist

Posts: 1004
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to JasonM

quote:

I’ve always had issues with : i up - a down - i down triplet continuous rasgueado. It always feels like I’m putting strain on my tendons (like in the back of my hand) , and if I relax it just sounds really weak and not snappy. But imi or amii never a problem.


Since you don't have an issue with ami-i but have an issue with ai-i which is just ami-i without the m, I suspect you are somehow changing your execution (of the same fingers: 'a' and 'i') between the two.

One possibility (without having seen how you do it so this may not apply at all) is that you might be subconsciously restricting the movement from the MCP (knuckle) joint when doing ai-i so it looks more like 'a' and 'i' moving just from the PIP joint (middle) - whereas you probably do not do that when executing ami-i.

If so, try doing the same freer motion and definitely move from the MCP joint with ai-i and it should feel much closer to the unencumbered feeling of ami-i. Just something to try if it in fact applies.

Others please correct this if it is stupid advice.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2020 18:04:42
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 662
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

If you are finding that Cepero is unusually fast here or that you can go fast but not so long, it might be you are trying to load and flick the fingers off the thumb or palm.

Yes, flicking the fingers off the thumb to get a punchy or machine gun rasgueado sound. I wanted to learn this way first because I believe once someone has mastered this, the free stroke version will be easy to handle.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 13:27:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

If you are finding that Cepero is unusually fast here or that you can go fast but not so long, it might be you are trying to load and flick the fingers off the thumb or palm.

Yes, flicking the fingers off the thumb to get a punchy or machine gun rasgueado sound. I wanted to learn this way first because I believe once someone has mastered this, the free stroke version will be easy to handle.


This is a common mistaken. They have different sounds for different reasons of chord voicing. And it will never get powerful and fast if you rely on the loading and flicking thing. Learn to do it first with free unloaded fingers like I show in the Fandango video earlier. When you master that then do i-a-i equivalent gallop but you only load and flick the i finger down.

Later when you return to the load and flick thing, you come to realize the sound is about how you target and attack groups of strings, and again start achieving the same sound by only loading i or i and m sometimes, or even zero thumb loading at all, and the discovery of being more “free” when making that machine gun bass snap sound actually affords way more speed with less effort.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 16:25:05
 
JasonM

Posts: 1435
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Since you don't have an issue with ami-i but have an issue with ai-i which is just ami-i without the m, I suspect you are somehow changing your execution (of the same fingers: 'a' and 'i') between the two.

One possibility (without having seen how you do it so this may not apply at all) is that you might be subconsciously restricting the movement from the MCP (knuckle) joint when doing ai-i so it looks more like 'a' and 'i' moving just from the PIP joint (middle) - whereas you probably do not do that when executing ami-i.

If so, try doing the same freer motion and definitely move from the MCP joint with ai-i and it should feel much closer to the unencumbered feeling of ami-i. Just something to try if it in fact applies.



Good points, K! I had the same thought about iai and amii being the same mechanism. One thing I noticed though is that when I do amii, I get an extra boost of force on the annular finger from slightly loading it off the middle finger. Basically just a tiny bit of friction off the side of the finger. and with iai, this is not really feasible since the middle finger stays extended. It’s possible this habit has weakened my a finger free stroke. Basically Ricardo’s point. Maybe I’ll make a vid. It’s not bad, it’s just not fast and strong as I would like.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 22:37:49
 
ernandez R

Posts: 215
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to ernandez R

Good info and a lot to think about and work on.

Almost two years and found I was now getting a really good staccato separation between each hit rather then a mush of crushed strings.

I found I liked the percussive nature of vary close to the saddle with my a finger less then a centimeter away but as Ricardo mentioned it's playing with all the physical variables to get a variety of tonal dynamics. I'm stall at the just happy happy to get a clear even attack.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2020 5:48:09
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 662
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Rasguoe, three to six beat help (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Later when you return to the load and flick thing, you come to realize the sound is about how you target and attack groups of strings, and again start achieving the same sound by only loading i or i and m sometimes, or even zero thumb loading at all, and the discovery of being more “free” when making that machine gun bass snap sound actually affords way more speed with less effort.

Thanks for pointing this out. Very useful info. First I thought rasgueado with free unloaded fingers will sound like shramm shramm which I wanted to avoid.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2020 15:05:17
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