Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Which palo (cante) to learn/transcribe?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Mavi

 

Posts: 24
Joined: Jun. 11 2015
 

Which palo (cante) to learn/transcribe? 
-For learning some cante melodies, which palo would be a good beginning point? Tangos, fandangos?
-Would you recommend a certain order?
-Would certain singers be easier to study? (Fosforito or Camaron comes to my mind).
-Do you think such a practice would be useful for guitar players, or would it be better to study accompaniment instead?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2020 3:57:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to Mavi) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavi

-For learning some cante melodies, which palo would be a good beginning point? Tangos, fandangos?
-Would you recommend a certain order?
-Would certain singers be easier to study? (Fosforito or Camaron comes to my mind).
-Do you think such a practice would be useful for guitar players, or would it be better to study accompaniment instead?


I think the solea examples on canteytoque.es would be good. Pick a style like serneta I and write out a couple versions.

But first check out Carol Whitney’s transcription of juan Talega (sorry bottom image read first, then top is the ending.)





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2020 4:43:26
 
Mavi

 

Posts: 24
Joined: Jun. 11 2015
 

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to Ricardo) 
Thanks Ricardo, especially for the transcription. I will try to figure out how cante corresponds to rhythmic notation, it has to be an approximation right, as I see cante lying somehow freely over compas?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2020 17:03:46
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to Mavi) 
quote:

I will try to figure out how cante corresponds to rhythmic notation, it has to be an approximation right, as I see cante lying somehow freely over compas?


No, the guitar is the reference so the timing has to relate specifically to the guitar meter. But you will notice that the singer is not adhering to a set timing when delivering the melody (at least old schoolers). I was hoping that would be one of the main reasons you want to transcribe cante. In this thread, (again I show the same score I posted here), kitarist showed a score that was a more generic compas alignment with guitar. I think it’s better to show the literal timing relative to the guitar.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=315076&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=carol%2Cwhitney&tmode=&smode=&s=#315087

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2020 17:20:42
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

In this thread, (again I show the same score I posted here), kitarist showed a score that was a more generic compas alignment with guitar. I think it’s better to show the literal timing relative to the guitar.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=315076&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=carol%2Cwhitney&tmode=&smode=&s=#315087


Here is Bela Bartok in 1936 transcribing Turkish folk songs. Such a neat handwriting! Something that detailed would be great for flamenco cante, but paired with the guitar accompaniment (and with cante style classifications as in canteytoque.es to add more detail to it; currently Norman has some detail for some siguiriyas - see second image).

On the other hand it'd be interesting to take Bartok's transcriptions and analyze them in terms of the Turkish makams etc. (There, a D.Mus. or rather Ethnomusicology Ph.D. dissertation topic, just waiting)

This is from a Bartok monograph called "Turkish folk music from Asia Minor" (the work was completed in 1936 but not published until 1976) which can be perused at https://archive.org/details/turkishfolkmusic0000bart




Currently Norman has some detail for some siguiriyas at http://canteytoque.es/sigclas.htm :


Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2020 19:19:48
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to kitarist) 
There is also cool systematical analysis which would seem to be applicable in some way to flamenco cante analysis as well. (meaning it might yield meaningful/useful insights)

For example:

1. Classification of melodies in conjuction with the sung words:




2. Lexicographical index of melodies as interval progressions and cross-referenced with other properties (this was done not by Bartok but later on before publication in 1976 with the aid of a computer):



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2020 17:54:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to kitarist) 
Yikes. The BartoK is a mess. 4/4 6/4 7/8 what??? I would have to hear it. If it was meant to be like “cante Libre” then we have an opportunity to simplify rhythmic intentions of phrase for ease of readability and purpose, not make it overly complex. If this was the opposite case, well, he must be confused about the “compas” of whatever they were doing.

As for the table, I would need references and specifics in order to relate or find it useful to cante, as it looks there it’s all Greek to me lol. One point I made a long time back about Norman’s Solea structure... I found it important to note that the two letra types ABCD vs ABC interms line and rhyme structure, could confuse the issue regarding the music phrase. In other words the “Cambio” and it’s repeat structure musically looks like abcdcd but the other looks like abcbc...and that is misleading cuz they are doing the same thing musically but look different with that analysis. I proposed A1A2BC for the 4 liners so musically the structure relations hold. Or another way to see it would be that the three liners don't use the B line, so you have ACDCD.

The main problem is that the 4 liners do this with the words: ABCDAB, thanks to rhyme, however the melody is doing ABCDCD. (I would do A1A2BCB1C2 so letters imply music, 1,2 refer to the lyric. All solea simplify to ABC). Another is BBBBCDAB...again musically it could be A2A2A2A2,BCB1C2. Because to me, all solea need the B line to musically correspond to a set up that needs resolution (C). I don’t think the lyric repeat patterns are more important than the music repeat pattern, because the guitarist has to understand to correctly harmonize the melody, not the words. Norman disagreed because he felt it common knowledge that the cambio repeats except when it doesn’t. To me however, once things are thought to be “common knowledge”, then there is no more need for analysis. If accompaniment of cante were so easy you would see many more people doing that than being singers, but it’s actually the opposite.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2020 14:47:32
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2178
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to Mavi) 
quote:

-Would certain singers be easier to study? (Fosforito or Camaron comes to my mind).


Camaron might be a little freeform. I started by playing along with Melchor accompanying Sordera por soleá. I even learned that the compás is elastic. I told this to Vicente (hijo) and he laughed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2020 16:54:52
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

4/4 6/4 7/8 what??? I would have to hear it. If it was meant to be like “cante Libre” then we have an opportunity to simplify rhythmic intentions of phrase for ease of readability and purpose, not make it overly complex.


Yes this particular one was cante libre (Bartok calls it "parlando"). You make a good point about this; I meant to show how one can have detailed transcription of the cante, but in retrospect I should have picked a rhythmic example instead. I will rummage through the rest and do that in a different post.

Here is that particular melody (1a) I posted above, for reference. It was a bit difficult to locate and match which song is which, but I am getting the hang of it now. Unfortunately Bartok took with him in the field an old Edison wax cylinder recording machine, so the quality is poor given the recording was made in late 1936.




The full list of available songs is on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22Bart%C3%B3k:+Turkish+Folk+Music+Collection%22&sp=EgIYAQ%253D%253D (if that doesn't work, the list is produced by entering "Bartók: Turkish Folk Music Collection" (with the quotes) in the youtube search bar.)

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2020 15:52:21
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to kitarist) 
quote:

I will rummage through the rest and do that in a different post.


OK here is one. First I will post the three images with the transcription, then an image of how Bartok classified it.

Bartok's no.44, the audio of which is here: (EDIT: hmm I guess the audio omits the third 'copla')











Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2020 22:00:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to kitarist) 
quote:

Bartok's no.44, the audio of which is here: (EDIT: hmm I guess the audio omits the third 'copla')


Well where are the three flats I am hearing? And the E note (Eb!) should be down beat where his second 8th notes are landing (based on melody flow and emphasis). Scoop to C-D-D-C then Eb-F-Eb(triplet)-D is how he sings it everytime. Third phrase I hear like C-Bb-B(nat)-Ab-G-G. He does point arrows at the second 8th note of many phrases... I doubt they want the synchopated accent but maybe they showed him that rhythm?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2020 13:37:01
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which palo (cante) to learn/tran... (in reply to Ricardo) 
Yes, it seems it was all very 'exotic' to them. Despite having learned Turkish companions with him, it does not seem like Bartok was knowledgeable of the peculiarities (i.e. Turkish makams). Also, the 'dotted rhythm' "that sometimes is flattened" likely reflects him trying to conceptually shoehorn uneven rhythm patterns into even meter, who knows. Though he was otherwise aware of the uneven meters in other folk music.

Anyway, A for effort, B- for execution? Point is, he did try to produce a detailed description of what he was hearing. Unfortunately none of the transcribed pieces are a combination of song with instrument (it's either one or the other).

One of the older singers from remote village (whom they did eventually record) was very reluctant to sing. He was afraid that singing into that funnel of the recording machine would take away the power of his voice and he would not be able to sing afterwards anymore. I guess Bartok and his contraption were as exotic to them as they were to the him.

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2020 19:26:19
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.0625 secs.