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Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

Building two under influence of a 19... 

I’ve just started two new guitars that I’ll probably build side by side.
My friend in Berkeley CA has a very cool 1973 Sobrinos that I did some adjustment set up work on when I visited California in 2018. I took a few photos which I’ll find and post.

This is where they are- two necks both 660 mm scale and both getting end grain plugs for the pegs to be set in. Both are peg head stocks.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 16:44:50
 
estebanana

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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Glued in and cut off flush with a Japanese with no kerf set on the teeth.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 16:46:59
 
RobF

Posts: 950
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Cool. I’m looking forward to following this. Will they both be Cypress Blancas?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 17:43:12
 
kitarist

Posts: 1178
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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Guitar Police: Sir, have you been building under the influence?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 18:00:49
 
ernandez R

Posts: 354
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Steven,
The tried the end grain plugs once, hickory, but my taper ream just shredded the grain rather then cutting it. The ream was mostly new but not the best quality, smooth on one side and three cutting edges on the other. Perhaps a spiral cut ream would perform better? The hickory I used is, well it’s hickory and hard as a baseball bat or hammer handle.

I’ve taken to just case hardening then bore with thin CA, letting it cure for 24 hours and then reaming again.

I’ve also been doing the same with my wooden pegs only two or three layers scraping after each application.

With care I’ve been able to make the bore and pins exact enough to be interchangeable. I start by making my pins 1/4” on the small end and all other dimensions fallow.

Looking forward to the rest of your build.

HR

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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 18:12:59
 
orsonw

Posts: 1462
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Thanks for posting, I am also looking forward to following this.
It's great to have you posting again on the foro.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 20:20:20
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

This is the rosette, I won't be copying it. I'm going make one that is in the spirit, but not a copy, or replica.

"Guitar Police: Sir, have you been building under the influence?

"Let's be clear, I don't have a drug problem, I have a police problem."

Kieth Richards








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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 3:22:25
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

The top bracing- here’s a rough guide-
I have to make a new plexiglass half template for this model from the tracing and notes I took, but fast and dirty this is what we’re dealing with.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 10:49:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The top bracing- here’s a rough guide-
I have to make a new plexiglass half template for this model from the tracing and notes I took, but fast and dirty this is what we’re dealing with.




Finally!

However that’s not like mine and Brune’s 67. In fact it’s not even orange! I think it’s fake.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 15:38:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Ricardo

Fake POst Alert. The Sticker Crew is here

Jorge de Sophia is making this bracing too, he found it in an early '70's Sobrino's

But there's is no way in hell I will paint mine orange, disgusting!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 15:48:05
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Same bracing (and rosette but the rope) of my '64 Sobrinos de Esteso and of a '54 Sobrinos belonging to a friend.

Here is the pic of a 45 Sobrinos and of my 81 Conde.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 15:50:34
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Echi

quote:

Here is the pic of a 45 Sobrinos


Wow, lovely guitar. Is she for sale?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 16:00:03
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Explosive sound, It's a deal.

Anyway I attached also the 81 bracing, just to show that the guitar which inspired Estebana is in the traditions of the Conde brothers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 16:07:48
 
RobF

Posts: 950
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Echi

That’s pretty well the same bracing as mine, too. too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 16:15:30
 
Stu

Posts: 1843
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Guitar Police: Sir, have you been building under the influence?



haha. This was my first thought.

I was imagining some pictures of empty whiskey bottles strewn across the workshop and badly fashioned guitar components

quote:

Wow, lovely guitar. Is she for sale?


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 16:19:30
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Echi

quote:

Here is the pic of a 45 Sobrinos and of my 81 Conde.



Good lord, how did that guitar get so many cracks? Look at all those cleats!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 19:14:24
 
RobF

Posts: 950
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Good lord, how did that guitar get so many cracks? Look at all those cleats!

It’s pretty cool, though, eh? Lots of good info packed into that photo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 19:26:15
 
davewphx

Posts: 51
Joined: Jul. 11 2011
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

So those little squares are reinforcements...cleats? Ha ha I thought at first it was to adjust resonace point. The building of these guitars is black magic to me..cool pics.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2020 22:40:18
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Echi

That bracing is straight up Santos Hernandez from circa 1920-25 then Barbero used it into the 1950’s

Everyone used that at some point. Manuel Ramirez used that before WW1 ( for you history nerds)

The think that’s different about the Sobrinos early 1970’s bracing is that the two diagonal braces in the lower bout are moved up toward behind the bridge and coupled in the middle.
The fans are glued right up to the lower transverse brace and are considerably shorter and wider.

The emphasis on the three middle fans is close placement creating a strong center ( long monopole) and the openness of the lost bout is very different from the Santos derived pattern.

They are not really alike at all. The Sobrinos shares some fan brace similarity with Gerundino’s work if the same years, and is also I suspect something that influenced Barba to use a similar diagonal brace that was coupled. Although who knows.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 4:16:15
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

teven,
The tried the end grain plugs once, hickory, but my taper ream just shredded the grain rather then cutting it. The ream was mostly new but not the best quality, smooth on one side and three cutting edges on the other. Perhaps a spiral cut ream would perform better? The hickory I used is, well it’s hickory and hard as a baseball bat or hammer handle.

I’ve taken to just case hardening then bore with thin CA, letting it cure for 24 hours and then reaming again.

I’ve also been doing the same with my wooden pegs only two or three layers scraping after each application.

With care I’ve been able to make the bore and pins exact enough to be interchangeable. I start by making my pins 1/4” on the small end and all other dimensions fallow.

Looking forward to the rest of your build.

HR



In the plug inserts- I think it’s not about hardness of the surfaces the pegs engage, but evenness of grain. We’re trying to get the peg shaft to ride against one direction of grain orientation by making the plug with end grain.

The wood only needs to be of similar hardness to the peg. I’ve found Maple and Teak to be very good. And I currently use a Japanese hardwood the name of which I can’t remember now, but it’s a lot like teak but not oily.

Reamers are weird, they cannot be sharpened by mortals with clunky home shops. Maybe a machinist could sharpen one. You store your reamer wrapped in paper to keep it from touching other tools. It may be chattering because the hickory is too hard. You did use end grain right? I’d switch to maple or something similar if I were you.

And be careful what you lie about. If you lie your nose will grow and you’ll be a wooden man. If you continue to lie your wife may kick you in the balls. That’s going to hurt, and it will send you to the hickory dickory doc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 4:29:27
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

That bracing is used by Domingo Esteso also and probably the Sobrinos are just following that path. This guitar is about 20 years after his death.
A substantial difference with Santos is the doming: while Santos has basically no doming behind the bridge (as in the Ramirez 1912 Plan and in the plan drawn by David Merrin) the shape of the Esteso is a little domed. I saw it personally and it’s reported in the a Esteso plan by Merrin.

I attach again the bracing of my 81 Conde (the same of many of the seventies) for a comparison.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 7:51:07
 
orsonw

Posts: 1462
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

However that’s not like mine and Brune’s 67. In fact it’s not even orange! I think it’s fake.


@ Ricardo Is this a picture of your 1973 sobrinos de esteso?

My 1971 sobrinos de esteso has exactly the same 5 parallel, central one longer, and 2 steep 'closing' braces (if that's the correct term).

My 1971 is not orange. I have to say I don't like orange so I'm not disappointed. But I have forgiven other Condes for being orange.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 9:48:44
 
orsonw

Posts: 1462
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Jorge de Sophia is making this bracing too, he found it in an early '70's Sobrino's

But there's is no way in hell I will paint mine orange, disgusting!


I think Jorge de Zofia is doing similar to your 1973 but with 5 braces. He also does what seem to more common in late 60s/early70s Conde: 5 parallel with 2 steep 'closing' braces. He posted this photo on his facebook page quite recently. Not sure if he's still active on the foro?

I don't blame you for not painting it orange. I tolerate orange on a Conde but I would not choose it.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 9:54:18
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Bonus Rosette for more under the influence

from 1953 Viuda de Domingo plus Sobrinos



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 10:53:37
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Echi

quote:

That bracing is used by Domingo Esteso also and probably the Sobrinos are just following that path. This guitar is about 20 years after his death.
A substantial difference with Santos is the doming: while Santos has basically no doming behind the bridge (as in the Ramirez 1912 Plan and in the plan drawn by David Merrin) the shape of the Esteso is a little domed. I saw it personally and it’s reported in the a Esteso plan by Merrin.

I attach again the bracing of my 81 Conde (the same of many of the seventies) for a comparison.


It's closer, but It's still a bit different.

As for the arch or dome, that's a guitar by guitar consideration-if anything Id say over all Conde's are less arched, Esteso and Santos vary from guitar to guitar.

But the arch isn't the point, the 1973 guitar I drew has slightly shorter fans and the diagonals are at a lower angle an moved toward the bridge a bit more. It leaves more open space in the lower bout.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 11:04:20
 
orsonw

Posts: 1462
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Bonus Rosette for more under the influence

from 1953 Viuda de Domingo plus Sobrinos


Really looking forward to see what rosette you design. I'm sure it will be great. Just keep drinking the sobrinos/conde Kool aid
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 11:17:14
 
Echi

 

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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

That rosette is really nice.

Jorge de Zofia has a nice collections of Sobrinos of different eras and knows very well their bracing patterns. The main bracing pattern used by Jorge is original though.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 14:21:59
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

quote:

Here is the pic of a 45 Sobrinos and of my 81 Conde.



Good lord, how did that guitar get so many cracks? Look at all those cleats!


It’s called Flamenco!!!!
My friend was doing set up work and pick up installation to Jorge Reyes (son of Nicolas of Gipsy Kings) main gigging guitar. No braces at all, the guitar sounded amazing acoustically. A first he thought it was built that way (Cordoba, really??), but a closer look revealed that the glue marks where the sticks once were. As he pounded out rumba over the years the sticks came loose and he just pulled em out of the hole and trashed em one by one!


And regarding all the orange hate. I suspect you guys got your non-orange vintage condes second hand. Previously somebody tried to touch it up and realized they can’t match that orange perfection and just stripped the thing and French polished or otherwise clear coated it. I feel sorry for you all. In my case I was lucky that somebody had the presence of mind to forego the stripping and preserve what orange was left with a clear nitro. Delicious.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 17:01:01
 
RobF

Posts: 950
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

In my case I was lucky that somebody had the presence of mind to forego the stripping and preserve what orange was left with a clear nitro. Delicious.

The last one I sprayed with Nitro ended up looking like Echi’s ‘45 Sobrinos. Happened first golpe.

The Jorge Reyes guitar reminds me of my old Gibson. I always knew when a brace had worked itself loose because those were the only times the guitar actually sounded any good.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 17:35:36
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

And regarding all the orange hate. I suspect you guys got your non-orange vintage condes second hand. Previously somebody tried to touch it up and realized they can’t match that orange perfection and just stripped the thing and French polished or otherwise clear coated it. I feel sorry for you all. In my case I was lucky that somebody had the presence of mind to forego the stripping and preserve what orange was left with a clear nitro. Delicious.



It’s not really hate, it’s more like a refined eye for color. Conde’ guitars are like bright red Ford Mustangs, that’s cool. But a grey silver Jaguar with a bit of orange in the color to push it warm is a more subtle color to enjoy.

The other reason I don’t like the bright color is that it’s imitative of violin varnish and violin varnish can have bold color, but it’s layered and crafted to be mysterious. There’s nothing mysterious about the acres of hot color on a Conde- but the neonish brightness appeals to some people. But if you see the deep orange red on a 17th century Venetian cello, your eye is ruined for appreciating neon.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2020 0:49:35
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