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RE: REQ: Ottmar Liebert Tab
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PacoPaella
Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 7 2004
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 RE: REQ: Ottmar Liebert Tab (in reply to andymcc)
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Kate,
with all due respect i dont agree with your opinion that Rumba is outside of what can be called Flamenco. Its useless to treat the music from an overly dogmatic viewpoint, its not a static art but one that is permantently developing and evolving. I am aware of several publications that argue along these lines but most of them are totally outdated. If rumba is no flamenco then i'd say neither are Fandangos de Huelva, Sevillanas, Guajiras colombianas. And, actually, solo guitar cannot be flamenco by definition because flamenco is , in first place, cante.
Where does taht lead us? Its certainly not constructive, its sort of an elitist approach taht would dry out the art of flamenco.
No offense intended, just my opinion.
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Date Mar. 4 2006 12:59:48
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Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
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RE: REQ: Ottmar Liebert Tab (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
You know what dogmatic is?
Saying Rumba is flamenco or its not, without giving any explanation.
I did give an explanation, talking about its origins in Cuba and that it was adapted to tangos, that it is very popular in Spain and generally considered flamenco pop or flamenco lite. I know a singer who walked out of her contract as the record company only wanted her to do popular rumbas. Most guitarist insist on putting a rumba on their records to get airplay not afforded to solo compostions. I've spent nights at Gypsy weddings dancing exclusively to Rumbas.
I did not start this debate but posted because I was fed up of reading vaguely insulting comments about 'puros' and then was drawn in by questions which I generally though I could shed light on. Next time Ron I take your advice. Why bother, it seems people have made up their minds that even talking about puro or even what is flamenco is considered elitist, snobbish and not constructive. Oh dear, how sad.
Deniz you asked me if rumba is considered flamenco yet ignoring my reply you go on to tell me what the answer was you expected "Your task would be to show, how the change of music legitimates rumba to be called flamenco". So see the above post where I say it came from Cuba and was adapted to the tango by flamencos. As Robin says in his book, that is what gives it the flamenco flavour.
And yes I do know what dogmatic is, opinionated and not based on actual knowledge. However, I emphasised that this was not my opinion but gathered from a lot of time spent with working flamencos.
You 'challenged' me to a definiton of flamenco and while you wont accept the answer (that in my experience it is defined by the various palos and compás) you dont offer up an alternative. If you want to disagree with that statement go ahead but I have little more to add and better things to do than post here and be insulted.
Like head down to my local Peña and thank the God of flamenco I live here where it is an everyday part of my life, puro, fusion, pop, art, lifestyle I enjoy every aspect of it even talking about it when I talk with someone knowledgable and can expand my own understanding and enjoyment. There is nothing better than being in the Peña when two flamencos get into a heated debate over a copa. It is a shame we cannot replicate that here but I suppose that forums do have their limits.
Kate
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Date Mar. 4 2006 18:17:10
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PacoPaella
Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 7 2004
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RE: REQ: Ottmar Liebert Tab (in reply to PacoPaella)
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Kate,
i realize that there are aficionados who consider those palos as folklore (usually including Fandangos, Deniz - Fandango de Huelva is not flamenco, if sevillanas arent). How come every artist has one or more non-flamenco pieces on their CD's tho? Can hardly call it commercial, one single rumba wouldnt ever convince any non-flamenco interested person to buy an album. I think the simple truth is that as the art evolves, palos make it into the commonly accepted flamenco catalogue. I am sure that twenty years from now we will see a lot of totally new palos being used absolutely naturally.
So, while you bring the book authors into the argument, i would just point towards your usual CD store. What about Emilio Maya? Does he stop playing flamenco when he does a Rumba?
Deniz, the above mentioned point is why i didnt explain in-depth why i consider Rumba to be part of flamenco. There are Rumbas on almost all Flamenco CD's i own, as well as Sevillanas and Fandangos, Colombianas and Guajiras, neither of which would be considered Flamenco 50 years ago, but they just made their way into the music. And as i said before, i have heard more than one aficionado say that solo guitar has nothing to do with flamenco at all. I dont recall any event i saw in spain that had one single solo guitar piece. Still, i would count solo guitar as flamenco. Dunno whats so unclear about that; its just a viewpoint, not reasoning. Feel free to disagree. 
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Date Mar. 4 2006 18:57:30
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: REQ: Ottmar Liebert Tab (in reply to PacoPaella)
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You know, this Puro thing never really changes, does it? To me, it's just a sort of generation gap. One camp wants to hold on to tradition, wants to to draw lines and the other camp sees flamenco as an evolving thing and is the one who is DOING things. It's kind of like the instant text thing, where you have all these young kids who do most of their communicating by thumb on their cell phones. They write ungodly constructions like I LUV ME SM ME! and expect to be taken seriously by people who know how to, or at least try, to write in coherent sentences. By the thing is that in 20 years this probably WILL be how people communicate. It will probably infiltrate the spoken word and we will start compacting our speech. "Tht ws fny LOL!" Disgusting, isn't it!
And we will all agree that there is "proper English"--the way we were taught, and there's this barbaric offshoot--the way they talk. And it won't be over until we're dead and everyone is talking like that. To me this flamenco puro thing is the same thing. We have people who grew up on a certain taste, and to them that IS flamenco, although nothing stays the same. Any evolution is anathema to them, no matter how inspired or unavoidable. Remember that they hated Paco and Camaron at one time, many still do I'm sure.
It's just a generation gap--although age is only one part of what decides which side of the puro fence you sit.
Again, I dislike the word because it is elitist, exclusionary, and ultimately insulting. But then, so is calling how we speak "proper English" to the future keepers of the flame. I definitely can defer to Kate about how people in Granada feel about flamenco. But the reality is there is nothing truly pure about an art form which is a synthesis of many different cultures, many different arts, many different peoples. Like all art, it has evolved over time and has not stopped. But we want to take a snapshot of a certain time period and we want to call THAT pure. In 50 years, what is now called pure will be forgotten and what is now "impure" will be hotly defended as orthodoxy and purity.
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Date Mar. 10 2006 14:21:34
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je je yup in the cold light of a Sunday morning hangover I see I was getting more than a bit confused with this thread, who is saying what to whom etc, and frustrated. Flamenco may be hard to play but I dont think it is hard to recognise. I have a friend who says that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its probably a duck, only they are applying it to flamenco. I guess you have to know what a duck is though 
