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Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
I asked your height because after agreeing that you had written nonsense, it occurred to me you might be just a child, and I was being too hard on you.
RNJ
La Mano Del diablo is a bit like the new ruphus. Something is lost in translation and his way is coming off abrasive. Since he keeps coming back with it I don’t think it’s trolling... but it’s gonna take a while to figure it out and get used to it whatever is going on.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Deniz)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
Do you actually understand the devilhand?
He asks good questions and then the weirdness begins after he gets a good answer and then comes the super bizarre follow up questions or opinionated ideas. So not yet.
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Ricardo)
Singers don't a;ways make it easy for us to understand. There is this one, mentioned recently by Ricardo: "No doble de campana, creyeron que era la reina, reina no era, era una probe gitana." Then also this similar one: "Oi doblar la campana yo crei que era la reina la reina no era era una probe gitana." Then I don't know which Caracol sings: "Ay que doble de campana, ay que doble de campana, campanero, no doble campana, ay que doble de campana…” I'm sure Ricardo can straighten me out.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Steelhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Steelhead
Singers don't a;ways make it easy for us to understand. There is this one, mentioned recently by Ricardo: "No doble de campana, creyeron que era la reina, reina no era, era una probe gitana." Then also this similar one: "Oi doblar la campana yo crei que era la reina la reina no era era una probe gitana." Then I don't know which Caracol sings: "Ay que doble de campana, ay que doble de campana, campanero, no doble campana, ay que doble de campana…” I'm sure Ricardo can straighten me out.
I know I talked about this one specifically, but can’t find it. The first line is like this....imagine someone running from out of town gates back into town and yelling “no, stop ringing the damn bells, bell ringing guy!!!” So Imagine that scene and each singer will deliver that message different ways, like a first person exclamation. Next verse is the omniscient viewpoint explaining WHY somebody is yelling to stop ringing the bells.
“They thought it was the queen”....you see before cel phones down in bumpkin Andalucia they had a guy in a tower watching out, and if he saw the king or queen or other important people coming his job was to alert the whole town to make preparations for the royal arrival. So this guy must have seen this beautiful chick being carried in a thrown on men’s shoulders with an entire entourage of people dressed fancy to the 9’s, so they were coming their direction so he starting ringing the bell to alert the town to prepare for the queen's arrival.
“Una reina no era”...this is the zero verse, or extension to buleria larga. In this case we sort of need it but don’t need it at the same time, it clarifies that it was in fact NOT the queen coming.
“Era una probe gitana”...it was a poor gypsy girl. (probe is slang for pobre, just like USA hicks say “nuke-you’ll-are” but scientists say new-CLEARER). So the implication here is, some dirt poor gypsy girl was having her wedding and she was so gorgeous and glowing with a beautiful gown that when she got hoisted up on the men’s shoulders, as they do, from a distance she resembled the queen and totally fuked up the near by town that she was probably too poor to live in anyway. And the narrator notes that the first person individual shouting up to the guy in the tower is trying desperately to put a stop to it all before the gypsies get closer. And so it shows how important the gypsy wedding is and how it makes all the girls feel like real Queens if only for a brief moment despite their poverty.
Knowing the back story the 3 lines are enough to tell it but the zero verse extension is a nice clarification in this case. Some singers even repeat that line several times to emphasize the point.
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Ricardo)
There is also cuplé, usually sung por bulerías. A cuplé was a pop song usually sung in cabarets and music halls before the invention of radio and tv.
In this bulerías, the third verse might come from a music hall show, and the following verses could also come from cabaret, zarzuela or possibly Carnaval de Cádiz.
debajo de tu ventana me entró sueño y me dormí me levantaron los gallos cantando el quiquiriquí
ya esto se ha acabao por lo malina que has sío ni te debo ni me debes esto ya se ha concluío
y en La Bombilla, señores me dió a mí la chaladura por conquistar a un fotógrafo de esos de cámara oscura y en el baile me decía en medio del balanceo: ay, Nemesio, ay, Nemesio hazme un retrato al magnesio ay, Nemesio, por favor házmelo y házmelo y házmelo
segun la fe de bautismo nació esta preciosidad en un puesto de castañas que tenía mi papá
yo nací en la Ribera de Curtidores y allí conocí al chico de mis amores de puro gitano que era el chiquillo apaga las cerillas con un martillo
cuando voy por la mañana a mi puesto de castañas me dice la castañera así: oiga usted, castañero mire usted, castañero esto no puede seguir así
te quise, más no pretendas ya no te vuelvo a querer agua que va río abajo arriba no ha de volver
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
“They thought it was the queen”....you see before cel phones down in bumpkin Andalucia they had a guy in a tower watching out, and if he saw the king or queen or other important people coming his job was to alert the whole town to make preparations for the royal arrival. So this guy must have seen this beautiful chick being carried in a thrown on men’s shoulders with an entire entourage of people dressed fancy to the 9’s, so they were coming their direction so he starting ringing the bell to alert the town to prepare for the queen's arrival.
“Una reina no era”...this is the zero verse, or extension to buleria larga. In this case we sort of need it but don’t need it at the same time, it clarifies that it was in fact NOT the queen coming.
“Era una probe gitana”...it was a poor gypsy girl. (probe is slang for pobre, just like USA hicks say “nuke-you’ll-are” but scientists say new-CLEARER). So the implication here is, some dirt poor gypsy girl was having her wedding and she was so gorgeous and glowing with a beautiful gown that when she got hoisted up on the men’s shoulders, as they do, from a distance she resembled the queen and totally fuked up the near by town that she was probably too poor to live in anyway. And the narrator notes that the first person individual shouting up to the guy in the tower is trying desperately to put a stop to it all before the gypsies get closer. And so it shows how important the gypsy wedding is and how it makes all the girls feel like real Queens if only for a brief moment despite their poverty.
Another angle to this is that the first Gitanos to enter the Iberian Peninsula in the 15th century are recorded to have introduced themselves as nobility hailing either from "Egypt" or "Little Egypt" when they applied for letters of safe conduct, and they were believed for a while, until the government noticed more and more people coming and started treating them as criminals
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Ricardo)
Even without knowing much about the historical background I find these verses can also very well be understood in a modern/symbolic way:
"Why are you holding her up like a queen? She has all the men carrying her (symbolically) on their hands like she's a royal, but she's just a poor gitana girl. Stop ringing the bells (stop that fuzz), she made you believe she is something she isn't".
..simply about a girl playing/controlling the men who treat her like she was a queen.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Deniz)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
Even without knowing much about the historical background I find these verses can also very well be understood in a modern/symbolic way:
"Why are you holding her up like a queen? She has all the men carrying her (symbolically) on their hands like she's a royal, but she's just a poor gitana girl. Stop ringing the bells (stop that fuzz), she made you believe she is something she isn't".
..simply about a girl playing/controlling the men who treat her like she was a queen.
In this case no...all the gypsy weddings are a big deal and function like this to the present day, ie it’s not the girl’s fault nor her manipulation tactic that she is being worshiped like this, it is simply tradition, all the girls get to experience it, that is why the letra has a universality to the gitano community. They don’t always carry the young lady of course, (Some might even be too big lol) but the point about the wedding (which is not mentioned in the letra itself literally) is that it remains a huge event in gypsy life, and not just the ones in spain. It is often the case that marriages are also arranged. This is another context that provides deep meaning to letras that don’t make sense as literal translations. If you didn’t know that a certain couple was forced into marriage then you might not understand the power behind versus alluding to relations that have turned cold and secret affairs and such.
To understand how heavy this stuff is, I know one gypsy who eloped with a cousin that he was in love with because he did not want to marry the girl his parents had chosen...and never returned to his home town because of threat of death and shame. I know a couple of kids that were children of a different gypsy friend that divorced soon after their marriage and it was a huge scandal for all parties involved. This is all going on presently and so when I see these little verses they are more than open ended to interpret poems, they more often have heavy specific meanings.
quote:
Another angle to this is that the first Gitanos to enter the Iberian Peninsula in the 15th century are recorded to have introduced themselves as nobility hailing either from "Egypt" or "Little Egypt" when they applied for letters of safe conduct
While that might be true, it totally has no relevance in my mind to the letra at all because it would have been the MALES doing this mainly. But lets say for sake of a ridiculous argument that a poor gypsy girl once used this tactic of pretending to be an Egyptian queen in order to not get imprisoned or expelled...what town would ring the bells for an Egyptian???? It is explicitly for the SPANISH royalty and them alone, so no I don’t find that fact to be a relevant angle of interpretation at all.
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
While that might be true, it totally has no relevance in my mind to the letra at all because it would have been the MALES doing this mainly. But lets say for sake of a ridiculous argument that a poor gypsy girl once used this tactic of pretending to be an Egyptian queen in order to not get imprisoned or expelled...what town would ring the bells for an Egyptian???? It is explicitly for the SPANISH royalty and them alone, so no I don’t find that fact to be a relevant angle of interpretation at all.
You're missing the point. Texts sustain multiple readings -- the initial self-presentation of Roma as royalty was widespread throughout Europe, and these kinds of patterns tend to translate themselves into images and cultural tropes that take on their own currency within expressive practice. It would be ridiculous to say that the letra is about the first wave of Gitano immigration into Spain, I agree -- but good literary analysis also considers the resonances that are activated by a text, even if that text is not explicitly or even intentionally referring to them. I agree with your original analysis, and I am not saying that the intentionality of the letra is to evoke that early history. At the same time, though, the performative projection of royalty onto Gitano subjects (along with the ironic awareness that such claims might be spurious) has become a time-honored trope that can likely trace its roots back to the 15th century, and I think it's pretty clear that this royalty/negation-of-royalty trope is at play in the letra in question.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to tf10music)
quote:
I agree with your original analysis, and I am not saying that the intentionality of the letra is to evoke that early history.
Ok, well I am ok with people pretending to analyze flamenco letras that are outsiders to the culture. But as I pointed out in my first post, it’s not enough to know the language, and general academic history of Spain. You have to also know the back story, or rather, the INSIDE story if you want to really understand cante. I always make my own interpretation as relates to my own USA life, however, knowing Gitanos personally I know that is only serving myself and not a true DEEPER understanding in a lot of cases. Interpreting as an outsider is fine but it must be understood that your interpretation of the words are creating their own back story, and this IMO is not good for translation to another language nor a safe way to talk about the letras to Spaniards that don’t know flamenco or any spanish speaking people. So no good for what the original post is about.
The main thing I am saying, sure I might WRONGLY read into the letra something about 15th century gitano culture regarding impersonating royalty from foreign lands, but in this specific case I WAS NOT GIVING MY PERSONAL ANALYSIS OF THE LETRA!!! I was giving the explanation that I was given directly from the horses mouth, ie, the Gitano cantaores that actual sing and understand the context of this stuff!!! In fact I was trying to illustrate that exact point that it is dangerous to try to interpret letras at face value. I would have either stayed confused by the letra as it stands or, invented some nonsense about some specific confused queen/gypsy girl mix up, which of course can have various interpretations. The missing piece of info not contained in the letra is regarding La Boda....which suddenly explains the deeper meaning why they sing that letra all the time and why it’s relevant and has NOTHING really to do with queens and bells at all.
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Ok, well I am ok with people pretending to analyze flamenco letras that are outsiders to the culture. But as I pointed out in my first post, it’s not enough to know the language, and general academic history of Spain. You have to also know the back story, or rather, the INSIDE story if you want to really understand cante. I always make my own interpretation as relates to my own USA life, however, knowing Gitanos personally I know that is only serving myself and not a true DEEPER understanding in a lot of cases. Interpreting as an outsider is fine but it must be understood that your interpretation of the words are creating their own back story, and this IMO is not good for translation to another language nor a safe way to talk about the letras to Spaniards that don’t know flamenco or any spanish speaking people. So no good for what the original post is about.
Actually, this 'general academic history' that you refer to was not common knowledge at all for a long time and in many cases still isn't -- there are only one or two books (written relatively recently) that mention it, drawing on old archival records that had largely been ignored by European historians. And I don't know why you're assuming that I don't know any Gitanos personally (as it happens, I do).
quote:
The main thing I am saying, sure I might WRONGLY read into the letra something about 15th century gitano culture regarding impersonating royalty from foreign lands, but in this specific case I WAS NOT GIVING MY PERSONAL ANALYSIS OF THE LETRA!!! I was giving the explanation that I was given directly from the horses mouth, ie, the Gitano cantaores that actual sing and understand the context of this stuff!!! In fact I was trying to illustrate that exact point that it is dangerous to try to interpret letras at face value. I would have either stayed confused by the letra as it stands or, invented some nonsense about some specific confused queen/gypsy girl mix up, which of course can various interpretations. The missing piece of info not contained in the letra is regarding La Boda....which suddenly explains the deeper meaning why they sing that letra all the time and why it’s relevant and has NOTHING really to do with queens and bells at all.
I don't know what I have to say to make you understand that I was not doubting the primary explanation you delivered (or passed along, in this case). And I am well aware of the significance of the Boda Gitana. But again, texts sustain multiple readings, and tropes are not related to intentionality or primary explanations -- they are divorced from that level of contextual specificity, having been abstracted into generalized symbols. The presence of the trope does not at all undermine the contextual ground of La Boda as the primary intentional vehicle of the text. I don't know why any member of an expressive culture would be concerned about where a trope like that might have come from, since it would have nothing to do with what the text is trying to say. And it's important to respect that mindset. But assuming that every bit of expression and every image emerges 100% intentionally is kind of silly -- there isn't a single literary or oral tradition in which that is the case. So why not trace the historical origins of a given trope? Recognizing that the trope of the Gitano/a erroneously presented as royalty has a deep origin doesn't undermine the primary explanation, which is, as you say, La Boda (I'm sure you know more about the specific details of that than I do), and it allows us to simultaneously recognize the letra as a reification of various registers of cultural and historical memory.
But alright, I get that you want to be literal-minded, and that the first explanation that should be mentioned is the primary one -- and it was, since it was the one that was offered first, by you!
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I always make my own interpretation as relates to my own USA life, however, knowing Gitanos personally I know that is only serving myself and not a true DEEPER understanding in a lot of cases. Interpreting as an outsider is fine but it must be understood that your interpretation of the words are creating their own back story
Very well said, Ricardo! Also thanks for explaining the "true" meaning of the letra.
I for my part wasn't even aware about how deeply connected letras are to gitano culture for long - but I was taught that good lyric(s) always leave room for interpretation them very differently. And this is what's happening here. I tried to understand them in my rock-music influenced european way, tf10 tried to connect it to history and you offered us insight into what it means to gitanos. I'd have the cheeks to say that each of us joined some dots and came up with some pretty pictures to keep up that analogy.. the outcome though is very different and yours surely is what the creator intended it to look like.
Yet the fact you say that you are "ok" with outsiders interpreting letras their own way implies there are people who aren't..
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Ricardo)
Another question to help me understand (a bit more about) the cante:
¿Quién ha visto una pastora adornada con ricas pieles? y por coronilla le han puesto una matita de laurel verde.
I with my non-experienced, non-gitano eyes interpreted it as the "pastora", the shepherdess being a woman with lots of men around her that follow her around, like sheeps follow the shepherd/ess. She's using them like cattle basically. She's wearing rich skins of the men she already "killed" (metaphorically speaking) and she's crowned with a crown of green laurel - of which I read is a symbol for winning/being the winner. So he describes what Hall & Oates less peotically described as "she's a man eater".
I'd be most interested in the "actual" meaning of those verses and fill with them with actual cultural background! I found them from Pepe de Lucia's Buleria with Paco if anyone needs context to the precursing/following stanzas
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Ricardo)
I didn't care much for cante until I heard this on Youtube. These guys rock, including the player. Such a simple setting but amazing. I asked a Spanish friend what they were singing about and he said they were begging for money LOL.
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
Where did you get this man-eater angle from? There is nothing in these lyrics suggesting it.
I got to that "man-eater" conclusion through what I interpreted in the previous verses. Her being dressed with rich skins, wearing that crown of green laurel which both showcase her victory above all those men being bewitched by her. As I said, this is just a wild guess and purely fantasy, that's why I asked if someone knows how these lines were actually intended.
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to mark51)
quote:
I didn't care much for cante until I heard this on Youtube. These guys rock, including the player.
Juanfran also is one of my favorite cantaores of my age and I really like El Perlas simplistic, yet very intriguing stile of accompanying. You should check out the documentary "Flamenco. A Journey" on YouTube by a guy called "Tao" (taoruspoli is the channel's name), 10 parts iirc and most of them include the tocaor El Perla as well as some other interesting personas, including "El Torombo" who really lives up to his name.
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Deniz)
quote:
¿Quién ha visto una pastora adornada con ricas pieles? y por coronilla le han puesto una matita de laurel verde.
Who has seen a shepherdess Adorned with fine furs? And for a crown they have given her A branch of green laurel.
The Real Academia Española gives:
"mata--2. f. Planta de poca alzada o tamaño. Mata de tomate, de claveles."
"Matita" would be the diminuitive of "mata."
A laurel crowned shepherdess dressed in fine furs would be an anomaly, but in this case there is no clear implication. Your imagination went astray by taking the wrong sense of the word "piel."
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Deniz)
quote:
I with my non-experienced, non-gitano eyes interpreted it as the "pastora", the shepherdess being a woman with lots of men around her that follow her around, like sheeps follow the shepherd/ess. She's using them like cattle basically. She's wearing rich skins of the men she already "killed" (metaphorically speaking) and she's crowned with a crown of green laurel - of which I read is a symbol for winning/being the winner. So he describes what Hall & Oates less peotically described as "she's a man eater".
I'm sure Freud would have something interesting to say about your interpretation!
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Deniz)
quote:
I with my non-experienced, non-gitano eyes interpreted it as the "pastora", the shepherdess being a woman with lots of men around her that follow her around, like sheeps follow the shepherd/ess. She's using them like cattle basically. She's wearing rich skins of the men she already "killed" (metaphorically speaking) and she's crowned with a crown of green laurel - of which I read is a symbol for winning/being the winner. So he describes what Hall & Oates less peotically described as "she's a man eater".
Asked a cantaor who didn’t get into it too deep, basically said you can change the “Pastora” for “gitana” ....in other words, the poor gypsy again. So it’s not about symbolism here, a shepardess would be a poor person relatively speaking. So “Ever seen a poor gypsy girl wearing a mink coat?” A rhetorical question where of course the answer should be “no”... but the laurel crown can be seen, along with the coat, as a symbol of success, victory, status...but there is also the biblical interpretation of over doing the success... as in it goes beyond what the hard working man/woman gets to enjoy, but it’s not real lasting or meaningful success, like fame. It would be luxuriantly displaying the success. So the letra is saying, no you don’t ever see a good gypsy woman showing off such fancy stuff. How such a woman came about the fancy clothes is up to interpretation and not really part of the message. Point is, good thing you don’t see gypsy girls acting like that.
RE: Do you actually understand the C... (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks Ricardo, I guess you really have to be deep into cante and/or be a gitano to really get a grasp on what most lyrics are about. I can only interpret them in my western-raised 90s-child way, so I'm very thankful for any real insight.
Once the whole Corona thing is over nothing can keep me from driving down to Andalucia and get some first-hand experience!
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