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any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos?   You are logged in as Guest
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Steelhead

 

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Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? 

Compañeros/as,
Can we/you/anyone think of any estilos, in whatever cante, that have entered the general repertoire since the 1960s? By "estilo," I mean, of course, a stock tune (e.g., “La Andonda 1”), to which different letras can be set. (I understand that not everyone uses that word in this sense.) Thus, for example, Kliman (from Soler and Díaz) shows dozens of estilos in soleares and siguiriyas, but they are all traditional, dating up to Mairena’s time but not past. We could enumerate more estilos in tangos and other cantes, but I am not aware of any, in whatever palo, of recent vintage. E.g., in bulerías and tangos etc, there are plenty of new cuplés/songs/temas, but I don’t see any of them becoming estilos per se, i.e., treated as stock tunes, with different letras.
I know a few ppl (e.g., Morente) have composed a new fandango (tune) here and there, but I am wondering how much those things have really entered the general repertoire, with ppl setting other letras to them.
I’d appreciate any insights…

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Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2020 18:29:47
 
Paul Magnussen

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Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Steelhead

The final track on Paco Peña’s A compás is a new rhythm that Paco tells me is called ocho.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2020 18:49:53
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Paul Magnussen

for reference the Paco Peña track is here:




Another one is Canastera by Camarón - it was an attempt to invent a new song form, and I have heard it sung once or twice by other singers, but not sure if it could be said to have "entered the general repertoire".

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2020 19:22:41
 
Steelhead

 

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RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Steelhead

Right, thanks, though Camarón's "Canastera" (like El Lebrijano's "Galeras") was meant to be an actual new cante/palo. I'm thinking of new estilos within established cantes like soleares.

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Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2020 19:47:48
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

I'm thinking of new estilos within established cantes like soleares.


sorry, misread your post. I have often heard melodies, often refrains or estribillo type melodies that I know from Morente or Camaron sung in dance shows by other singers, but whether the actual words are the same or different I couldn't say for sure. This is the kind of question/thread where I lurk with interest rather than contribute anything meaningful!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2020 21:02:04
 
TonyGonzales84

 

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Joined: Apr. 23 2020
From: San Diego, CA

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Steelhead

The Enrique Morente fandangos you refer to I assume are the ones below, sung by him, then by Camaron (finally, demonstrating Paco de Lucia's toque for Camaron). I don't know how widespread they might be.







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Tony
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2020 21:17:42
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 874
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Steelhead

Some Tangos and Jaleos Extremeños come to mind. They were discussed in this thread:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=324856&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

I wouldn't consider these to be part of the "general repertoire", as you requested, since they are attached to a specific region and to particular cantaores. However they are estilos in the traditional sense that you mentioned. The ones attributed to Juan Cantero, El Indio Gitano, Ramón el Portugués, La Marelu, Enrique el Extremeño, Guadiana, Remedios Amaya, La Kaíta and a few others are all from the 1960's onwards.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 30 2020 3:43:50
 
Steelhead

 

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RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Steelhead

Good stuff there, thanks for that link.

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Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 30 2020 13:45:16
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelhead

Right, thanks, though Camarón's "Canastera" (like El Lebrijano's "Galeras") was meant to be an actual new cante/palo. I'm thinking of new estilos within established cantes like soleares.


The simple answer is that there are numerous examples of buleria, tangos, tanguillo, that we can think of as included as mix ins with the old material. Since the source material was always based on 80s-90s recordings, I sort of see them as “covers” like in pop music. I see many things repeated from the Saura movie, though much of that was old school anyway. Of course there are the tunes of Pepe de lucia done with or without his brother or interpreted by Camaron. Isidro, Manolo sanlucars brother, composed lots of updated Cante for various singers, (duquende Samaruco is a favorite) but most of it didn’t stick to become traditional repeated material as much as Pepe’s bulerias tangos etc. Also Vicente composed lots of things for singers (Pele, Merce, Remedios) that get mixed in these days.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2020 17:40:41
 
devilhand

 

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RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Ricardo

I have short audio examples for 53 palos. I wonder how many palos exist officially excluding the location and palos personales.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2020 18:25:43
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

I have short audio examples for 53 palos. I wonder how many palos exist officially excluding the location and palos personales.


Define “palo”.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2020 18:39:52
 
devilhand

 

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RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Define “palo”

Palos are flamenco forms. I don't want to complicate things. Palos are names like Alegrias, Solea, Tanguillos etc.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2020 19:18:18
 
Brendan

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RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

how many palos exist officially excluding the location and palos personales.


‘Officially’? I know flamenco has been getting more institutionalised, what with the UNESCO thing and now there is a trades union. I wasn’t aware that there is a bureaucracy that identifies and counts palos. Where is its office? Is the minister for flamenco a cabinet post?

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https://sites.google.com/site/obscureflamencology/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2020 10:42:49
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Define “palo”

Palos are flamenco forms. I don't want to complicate things. Palos are names like Alegrias, Solea, Tanguillos etc.


Would you count tangos extremeños, tangos de Granada, tangos de cadiz, and tangos de malaga, as all one palo called “tangos”?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2020 17:03:05
 
tf10music

 

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Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

tangos de Granada


And think of all the accepted stylistic variations within this category alone...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2020 19:05:04
 
Steelhead

 

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RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Ricardo

So, Ricardo, have other cantaores sung new letras to, for example, the tune of Duquende's "Samaruco" (which is what would make it an estilo per se, i.e., a stock tune)?

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Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2020 21:52:29
 
Steelhead

 

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RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Steelhead

BTW thanks for turning me on to that "Saramuco," it's very nice, speaking of someone who generally has no use for alegrias.

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Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2020 21:54:58
 
devilhand

 

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RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Would you count tangos extremeños, tangos de Granada, tangos de cadiz, and tangos de malaga, as all one palo called “tangos”?

All variations fall under a single palo Tango. The same goes for Bulerias etc. I guess there must be at least 60 palos. Here are 65 palos I found. Rumba is not included.

Alboreá Alegrías Bamberas Bandolá Bulerías Cabales Campanilleros Caña Canasteras, Cante de las Mirris, Cantiña Caracoles Carcelera Cartagenera Chuflas Colombianas Debla Endecha Fandango Fandanguillo Farruca Garrotín Gilianas Granaina Guajira Jabegotes Jaberas Livianas Malagueñas Marianas Martinete, Media Granaína, Milonga Minera Mirabrás Nana Petenera Polo Pregones Romance Romeras Rondeña Rosas Saetas Seguiriya Serranas Sevillanas Soleá Tango Tanguillo Taranta Taranto Temporeras Tiento Toná Trillera Verdiales Vidalita Villancico Zambra Zánganos Zapateado Zarabanda Zarandillo Zorongo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2020 0:08:38
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelhead

BTW thanks for turning me on to that "Saramuco," it's very nice, speaking of someone who generally has no use for alegrias.


I referred to the entire album, not one track, as Isidro introduces new melody and structure for each form. Cigala has similar things in his Picasso album. None of these examples of the potential for cantaores to produce new styles, seems to have caught fire. But they stand as examples of what’s possible.

Solea



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2020 18:33:12
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Would you count tangos extremeños, tangos de Granada, tangos de cadiz, and tangos de malaga, as all one palo called “tangos”?

All variations fall under a single palo Tango. The same goes for Bulerias etc. I guess there must be at least 60 palos. Here are 65 palos I found. Rumba is not included.

Alboreá Alegrías Bamberas Bandolá Bulerías Cabales Campanilleros Caña Canasteras, Cante de las Mirris, Cantiña Caracoles Carcelera Cartagenera Chuflas Colombianas Debla Endecha Fandango Fandanguillo Farruca Garrotín Gilianas Granaina Guajira Jabegotes Jaberas Livianas Malagueñas Marianas Martinete, Media Granaína, Milonga Minera Mirabrás Nana Petenera Polo Pregones Romance Romeras Rondeña Rosas Saetas Seguiriya Serranas Sevillanas Soleá Tango Tanguillo Taranta Taranto Temporeras Tiento Toná Trillera Verdiales Vidalita Villancico Zambra Zánganos Zapateado Zarabanda Zarandillo Zorongo


Right, well, in that case, you are just showing a vocabulary list of songs, missing ones I pointed out. Chufla pregones etc are melodies mixed in to Bulerias. TARANTA Taranto Cartagenera minera granainas media granainas malaguena all the same form, just different melodies. Solea, as a single form, has equal variations (or more?) in melodies than all those, yet gets counted as one thing. Most of your obscure palo names are single sets of lyrics and melody, hardly worthy of the label “song form”. The better way to view the scope of Flamenco is 4 main song form families, or trunks, then you can break those families down Into various related branches with specific differences.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2020 18:43:37
 
machopicasso

 

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RE: any new (i.e., post-1960s) estilos? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The better way to view the scope of Flamenco is 4 main song form families, or trunks, then you can break those families down Into various related branches with specific differences.


So, how would that look initially (i.e. the four "trunks" and their initial branches)?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2020 5:40:31
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