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Ricardo

Posts: 13229
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to chester

quote:

Does that mean that white people are allowed to play the blues?


1 white may play the blues for each black dude that gets an Eagle and American flag tattoo.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 11 2020 18:07:38
 
Estevan

Posts: 1889
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to chester



_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2020 20:28:54
 
RobF

Posts: 1169
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Estevan

Ahhh, the esteemed Bonzo Dogs, who brought to us the classic hit Canyons of Your Mind and it’s inimitable guitar solo, studiously practiced by Ricardo wannabies the world over since 1968.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2020 21:10:49
 
Schieper

 

Posts: 196
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

Ha ha. Awesome.. the stuff that exists. An Elvis/Sex pistols crossover band.... who could have imagined.. ;-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2020 10:16:56
 
RobF

Posts: 1169
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Schieper

From 1968, that might be the very first “shreds” style guitar solo ever recorded.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2020 15:03:40
 
Estevan

Posts: 1889
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

quote:

Ahhh, the esteemed Bonzo Dogs

Highly steamed, indeed!
They knew that you have to ask the right question.

quote:

the classic hit Canyons of Your Mind and its inimitable guitar solo

A real masterpiece in its extraordinary complexity.

quote:

From 1968, that might be the very first “shreds” style guitar solo ever recorded.

Ahead of their time in so many ways.

_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2020 22:03:05
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3193
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

Great Caesar's Ghost!

I did my very best to pay careful attention throughout the '60s. My daughter used to ask me to wear my Grateful Dead necktie for special occasions, well into the '90s. Then she would show the label to her contemporaries.

But how did I manage to miss the Bonzo Dogs?

How can I ever be forgiven for such a solecism?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2020 3:52:30
 
Brendan

Posts: 260
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

How can I ever be forgiven for such a solecism?


By watching this documentary about the main man.

Next you’ll be telling us you’ve never heard of the Rutles.

_____________________________

https://sites.google.com/site/obscureflamencology/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2020 17:07:17
 
Deniz

Posts: 91
Joined: Feb. 16 2020
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Ricardo

The greatest band never to be forgotten still is Spinal Tap..

..they go to 11!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2020 17:21:58
 
Estevan

Posts: 1889
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

How can I ever be forgiven for such a solecism?

Consider yourself excused, Richard.
Knowledge of such arcana requires English connections more recent than the time when my ancestor lent yours his castle.

_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2020 17:29:57
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to chester

quote:

A basketball player with Taiwanese parents decided to "dread" his hair.
Another player, a Black guy, made some remarks on twitter regarding how "appropriate" it is for an Asian dude to have dreadlocks.
The "offender" posted some sort of an apology where he said it's a sign of admiration just like the offended player's CHINESE TATTOOS.


That's an excellent observation. Most non Chinese - Japanese speakers who get a kanji tattoo are unaware the kanji may have three meanings, most kanji have two meanings. and in Japanese the kanji might mean something different than in Chinese.

And one of the biggest cultural appropriation capers in the history of the world is that the Japanese language adopted Chinese characters about 1100 years ago. Scholars from Japan traveled to china for years at a time to learn Chinese and apply the writing system to their own language. For a time Chinese was the official language of learning and diplomacy.

There are websites dedicated to the comedic meanings of Chinese and Japanese kanji tattoos on western bodies. The meaning obviously not intended by the bod that commissioned the tattoo. When Kanji d not have a contextual reference in a piece of writing or signage the meaning of the kanji can become unmoored from what the person with the tattoo had in mind.



It's mixed bag. Here are some Japanese kids looking at tattoos, the ones they like the most are the ones that are drawn the most beautifully with understanding of what a classically brushed kanji would have n terms of elegance and proportion. I think they are being pretty fair.





She's going to Roast celebrity tats



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2020 1:10:04
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

quote:

Ahhh, the esteemed Bonzo Dogs, who brought to us the classic hit Canyons of Your Mind and it’s inimitable guitar solo, studiously practiced by Ricardo wannabies the world over since 1968.


Weird Al Yankovich's crazy uncles.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2020 1:44:56
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3193
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

Ahhh, the esteemed Bonzo Dogs, who brought to us the classic hit Canyons of Your Mind and it’s inimitable guitar solo, studiously practiced by Ricardo wannabies the world over since 1968.



OK, I get it now: the spiritual heirs of Bob and Ray.

What? Nobody remembers Bob and Ray?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2020 19:07:17
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Ricardo

Bob and Ray: "Remember to write if you get work, and...Hang by your thumbs."

Great advice!

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The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2020 23:05:02
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1096
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Taken from the blogspot I've found recently. He writes pretty cool stuff in his blog with audio examples.

http://memoriaflamenca.blogspot.com/

Here are 2 interesting posts I translated into english using google.

Who can sing flamenco?

As I published on August 1, in the fall of 1969, Paco Almazán had asked the question What is cante? to 10 famous flamenco artists of the time, answers that appeared in Triunfo magazine on 10-18-1969. He had made them others. For example this:

Who can sing flamenco? A Galician, a gypsy, an Andalusian payo, a poor man, a rich man? Read what our artists said.

Pepe el de la Matrona : Anyone who is not mute or deaf. The doll cannot be sung by an Andalusian. The Basques have a privilege for choirs. Italian opera is written, but flamenco has no written music. We Andalusians only have in our heads the music that the mother who brought us into the world put into our heads.

Bernardo el de los Lobitos : The one born with it. A Galician? ... I have heard a Moor in Tetouan.

Francisco Mairena : The Andalusian feels it more than anyone else.

Manolo Caracol : Everyone who has conditions, sweetheart. Or maybe he's born singing.

Antonio Mairena : (We don't have an answer, but his teaching on Menese seems to confirm that, in addition to gypsies, a payo can sing that intends to sound like a gypsy.)

Rafael Romero : Anyone from any corner of Andalusia. Juan Barea is the only case of singers. Dancing and guitar is something else. There you have Sabicas, Montoya, Trini Borrull.

Juan Barea : First you have to have that way of feeling and an excessive hobby. You learn one thing that you later see was wrong. You have to start over many times.

Antonio Núñez "Chocolate" : We are human, the same above as below. Let's see, whoever is given a command grows!

Enrique Morente : The gypsies and the Andalusians. And exceptionally others who have to go to Andalusia to experience it. Like the case of Barea.

José Menese : Flamenco has undoubtedly come from the poor.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2020 23:49:19
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1096
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to devilhand

Payos and gypsies

Francisco Almazán Marcos ( Paco Almazán ), teacher of qualifications and profession, broke into Triunfo magazine with an important article ( El cante del pueblo ) published on September 11, 1969. He extended it to the following week and in this second installment brought together 10 cantaores (five gypsies, five non-gypsies) who were subjected to three questions. The answers to the first one ( What is cante? ) Were published on the 1st of this month. On the 7th, we gave them the answers to the second question ( Who can sing flamenco? ). This was the third:

Is there a gypsy cante and a non-gypsy Andalusian cante? If so, does it produce more emotion, does one have more artistic value than the other?

Read what 10 artists said:

Pepe el de la Matrona : All this is Juan and Manuela. What is needed is heart and knowing how to sing. There have been many gypsies who have left things behind in the history of cante; but not all. As there have been Andalusians who have also left things; but not all. There are those who sing well and those who sing badly.

Bernardo el de los Lobitos : Say that the following happened to Lobito: "He was singing with a gypsy and he said <We have to sing a gypsy!> And one who was in front answered: <What is that of singing a gypsy ? I know how to sing well and sing badly. Let's see, let them tell me what gypsy singing is. Scream? ... That's not singing. Now, everything has its moment.> "

Francisco Mairena : The gypsy sings something and the payo does not sing it like the gypsy. The cantes de Levante ... What do you want me to tell you? Those mining cantes are also imposed, but with a different feeling.

Manolo Caracol : There is no payo or gypsy cante. There are those who have a "pellizco" and those who do not.

Antonio Mairena : (We do not have this answer, but Antonio Mairena is co-author, with R. Molina, of a book, "Mundo y forma del cante", in which the question is exposed. In any case, his position is known in defense of his.)

Rafael Romero : They can both sing well; but there are more cases among the gypsies.

Juan Barea : One can produce the same emotion as another, if God has given it to them, because it is a matter of nature. Most of the gypsies in that way of feeling, I think so. From the moment they are born, in their homes and families, they begin to clap their hands. Others have other customs and those who like to interpret may have more difficulty.

Antonio Núñez "Chocolate" : To the non-payos ..., how would I say, God has given them their culture. They do like this, three times four, and to the Moon. Instead, God has given us this little cante thing ...

Enrique Morente : Generally, the gypsies; but that does not mean that there are cases of artists who penetrate as much as the gypsy or more. In another way of feeling, in another race, of course.

José Menese : If the cante doesn't sound like a gypsy, it can be thrown down the Ronda gorge. With a particularity, that there are clowns that clowns like. It takes ringing and you are going to see it tonight.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2020 0:24:56
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13229
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to devilhand

While it’s clear cante is Gypsy music and creations, I have to admit I later discovered myself being most impressed with certain payo or mixed blood interpretors. Here is a short list of some:

Silverio franconetti (never heard him but he is revered as the influence on Chacon and other payos)

Antonio Chacon
Aurelio Selles
Platero de alcala
Paquera de jerez (mixed blood)
Jose Menese
Chano Lobato
Enrique Morente (didn’t like him at first, but as I learned more I appreciated his work)
Fosforito (another who grew on me, thanks to his anthology with PDL)
Miguel Poveda

Not sure is Manuel Vallejo was gitano or payo, nor Pepe Marchena but both are very influential IMO.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2020 17:33:53
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Not sure is Manuel Vallejo was gitano or payo


I'm pretty sure he was payo, but yeah, I really, really love his cante por seguiriyas
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2020 6:56:33
 
Deniz

Posts: 91
Joined: Feb. 16 2020
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Ricardo

Are there any gitanos on this board by the way?
It'd be interesting to hear their opinions first hand!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2020 9:50:01
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1096
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to chester

quote:

Does that mean that white people are allowed to play the blues?

This kid can sing in this video. Nothing more to say. It's just a kid. The accompaniment sucks. Only rhythm guitar and no solo licks imitating the singer's voice.



_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2020 18:20:07
 
kitarist

Posts: 1427
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to devilhand

..and after puberty:



_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2020 18:43:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13229
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to kitarist

quote:

and after puberty:



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2020 23:39:57
 
RobF

Posts: 1169
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw
Hi RobF
Your guitar looks beautiful. Hope you post more pictures when it's finished.


Bit of a necro-post but I totally forgot to take pictures of the guitar talked about earlier in this thread before delivering it last year.

I just received this from the person whom I made the guitar for - it’s a video of him and a musical partner appearing on Spain’s Tierra de Talento last week. He’s playing the guitar and there’s a couple of good shots of it.

I’m proud of him, it looks like they were quite well received.

https://www.canalsur.es/television/programas/tierra-de-talento/noticia/1823530.html

Also, my proficiency in Spanish is not very high, but it sounds like the discussion after the performance might actually fit in with the spirit of this thread.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2022 18:09:06
 
ernandez R

Posts: 525
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

Rob,

That's super cool your guitar is having its own life. It's that facet of guitar building that makes it worth it, when someone makes magic with a creation of our own hands. I don't know more then a few handfuls of Spanish words so I'll leave any cultural opinions to those who do ;)

I respect that you choose to not self promote your guitars much but I feel the Foro would benefit by your sharing more of your guitars and building ideas etc. really I joyed and learned from the few times you have shared.


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2022 20:02:03
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 128
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Ricardo

The guitar sounds really good. Would love to hear it live and accoustic. Amazing to see one's work projecting energy into the world.
Amazing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2022 9:40:25
 
Steelhead

 

Posts: 88
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan

If anyone is interested in more academic verbiage about “cultural appropriation,” I published a recent article “Musical Borrowings, Copyright, and the Canard of 'Cultural Appropriation', endeavoring to dismantle the notion. It’s accessible only by purchase or institutional access but I can send to anyone interested. The abstract is pasted here. Essentially, I concluded that there is no way one can offer a rigorous definition of “cultural appropriation” without asserting that it is unethical for me to cook spaghetti. Hence articles, blogs etc that use the term tend to be laden with innuendo and implication, as if the authors know that they can’t make a solid case for why a black woman can’t dance Irish, or Iggy Azalea can’t rap in “blaccent,” or I can’t use chopsticks.

<<This essay reviews the basic contours of the cultural appropriation controversies as they have been waged in reference to music in both academic and vernacular circles. It discusses some of the debates that have involved white performers’ musical borrowings from African American culture, and also musical flows outside the Euro-American mainstream. It explores relations of these ethical polemics to notions of copyright and argues that the latter can provide a moral guide to the propriety of many cultural interactions. It further critiques the terminological and conceptual distortions and obfuscations that have tended to plague discussions, both on scholarly and popular levels. These problems are evident in the very notion of “cultural appropriation,” which can be seen to emerge as a confused attempt to reconcile the anxiety generated by hegemonic borrowings, on the one hand, with the inevitability and ultimate desirability of cultural flows on the other.>>


Now then, on another topic, though on the same thread, I must beg to differ with Ricardo regarding the “pre-historical” fandango:

<<I have yet to see evidence in any form of what we know is “fandango” today, meaning the rigid harmonic structure and phrasing, existing before the first recordings of Malagueñas and such on the first wax cylinders. The baroque music that claims to be related, even by name, is not related at all by any important musical specific. The Scarlatti fandango has a bit of a solea falseta in it.>>

For one thing, in El Murciano’s 1840s “Rondeña,” the copla section is in clear fandango form (“Los ojos de mi morena”). Castro Buendía notices a fandango in a 1754 dance manual of Minguet y Yrol with the copla moving from the Dm-A ritornello to the standard F-Bb-F-C—at which point the next page is lost, but one strongly suspects that the ”textbook” F-Bb-A is following. In general I think it’s useful to look at the fandango, historically, as having two components—the Dm-A (por medio) ritornello/entrecopla—and the copla, with the fandango chords. In different “fandangos” over the centuries, these have different degrees of import. The fandangos of Soler and Máximo López are mostly ritornellos, but with short “copla”-like excursions in relative major. But I think Ricardo (who we know is incredibly erudite) knows all this.

_____________________________

Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2022 14:57:44
 
JasonM

Posts: 1770
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

Ole Rob! Congratulations. That’s a cool way to see your creation, eh!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2022 16:27:12
 
Mark2

Posts: 1688
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

Congrats! Guitar sounds great! Must be really satisfying to produce an instrument that professionals are pleased with.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2022 17:30:02
 
RobF

Posts: 1169
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM
Ole Rob! Congratulations. That’s a cool way to see your creation, eh!


Yeah, it’s nice to hear how it sounds in that kind of setting. I’ve watched it few times since yesterday and I really like her voice.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2
Congrats! Guitar sounds great! Must be really satisfying to produce an instrument that professionals are pleased with.


Thanks! It really is. He sent me the link right away when it was posted but never mentioned the show to me earlier. He’s been very pleased with the guitar, it’s uniquely his, and I think he appreciates that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2022 17:31:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13229
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelhead

Now then, on another topic, though on the same thread, I must beg to differ with Ricardo regarding the “pre-historical” fandango:

<<I have yet to see evidence in any form of what we know is “fandango” today, meaning the rigid harmonic structure and phrasing, existing before the first recordings of Malagueñas and such on the first wax cylinders. The baroque music that claims to be related, even by name, is not related at all by any important musical specific. The Scarlatti fandango has a bit of a solea falseta in it.>>

For one thing, in El Murciano’s 1840s “Rondeña,” the copla section is in clear fandango form (“Los ojos de mi morena”). Castro Buendía notices a fandango in a 1754 dance manual of Minguet y Yrol with the copla moving from the Dm-A ritornello to the standard F-Bb-F-C—at which point the next page is lost, but one strongly suspects that the ”textbook” F-Bb-A is following. In general I think it’s useful to look at the fandango, historically, as having two components—the Dm-A (por medio) ritornello/entrecopla—and the copla, with the fandango chords. In different “fandangos” over the centuries, these have different degrees of import. The fandangos of Soler and Máximo López are mostly ritornellos, but with short “copla”-like excursions in relative major. But I think Ricardo (who we know is incredibly erudite) knows all this.


Yes, well my comment quote above was summer of 2020, mid pandemic. I learned a lot since then, and have read numerous “scholarly” papers on the subject. The Minguet y Yrol partial evidence I will have to take your word for it, however, since pages are missing I don’t see it as very valuable in comparison to the Maximo Lopez Fandango which has no date, but considering his death in 1820’s it is safe to assume the piece was written or conceived of close enough to the 1750-1800 window that we can admit there must have already existed the basis of the flamenco version:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=332747&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=lopez%2Ccopla&tmode=&smode=&s=#332784

The issue I have with the above, if you read my interpretation, is that the ritornellos are clearly Minor key, not Phrygian based, and the copla of Fandango is done or focused on as the “glorious triumphant purpose” of the Fandango form in Flamenco, whereas the classical music/dance seems to be about meandering “falsetas”. It is either “fakemenco” (I suspect as much), or the Gitanos took that silly little copla and for reasons unknown expanded it into the Glorious 2/3 of the flamenco tree (far fetched). In addition to the above I was quite impressed with the collection of Eduardo Ocón, giving hard evidence of several flamenco structures in play by the 1860s (time of gathering the collection long before publication in 1874), including not only Soleá and Fandango, but the derivative concepts of Malagueña, Granaina (with these, the Rondeña and Muriciana chord charts), the Caña (swapped title for the Polo), Tanguillo, and Sevillanas. A familiar nana is in there, and conspicuously absent, the Siguiriyas. I have also tried keeping up with Castro Buendia’s work such as suggested by his massive Silverio Franconetti dissertation (3017 pages) where his conclusions tend to dispel many of the myths I have tried to address over the years. With exception that the timeline bar for the above song forms has moved way back from 1900 wax cylinder evidence to the 1860s (for certain) and likely 1800 (the scores taken with writings of Calderon and Borrow mainly for me, who admit the music they observe is much older than 1838), very little in regard to origins has come to light since the earliest “flamencology”. The general belief (I feel is very wrong) that this music just magically “came together” as if in some cultural soup of witches caldron that produced “flamenco” suddenly, thanks to 1.) gypsies and 2) time, continues to prevail. If everybody just stops and thinks scientifically for one second, the structure is so clear that it must have an origin and with that, a REASON for holding its structure, just like Blues.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2022 12:27:50
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