Centering new rosette sticker

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Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

Centering new rosette sticker

I am contemplating horsing around with this entry level Yamaha classical guitar I bought. So I am going to try and change the tuners and replace the pastic nut and top kam from plastic to bone. These will be new hights I am climbing in respect of my craftmanschip skills.

I also want to sand off the existing brown lacquer and just give it a blast with some lighter shellac.

I assume that the exisiting rosette is some sort of sticker which will disapear if I start to grind. Is there a trick for perfectly centering a new rosette sticker?

I totaly respect that some of you might be offended by the suggestion of using rosette stickers. :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2020 22:17:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

quote:

I totaly respect that some of you might be offended by the suggestion of using rosette stickers.

I was under the impression most luthiers just use a nice sticker these days. Estebanana is a veritable Jedi master of centering the perfect rosette sticker. You should send him a PM for advice.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 4:35:15

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

This here’s an easy one.

Once you’ve finished sand blasting the old sticker off you can pretty well slap down the new one anywhere you want and then just move the hole around until it’s nicely centered inside it. Then get a spray bomb of lacker and bring the whole rig somewhere where there’s an exhaust fan. Bathroom or kitchen will do, but I’ve been told to avoid the kitchen if you cook with gas, still don’t know why. So, bathroom it is, turn on the old exhaust fan, dangle the guitar from the shower curtain rod and have at it. Done in no time at all and it doesn’t matter what kind of guitar it is, they always sound better after. Everybody knows this.

I used to make big money doing this stuff, but a guy named Ricardo came along and stole most of the business. Turns out he’s some kind of expert on these stickers. Him, and that other guy from Star Trek.

P.S. If it stinks up the bathroom, you know what to do...just burn up a whole pack of matches all at once, wave ‘em around, and nobody’s the wiser. Same as with any other stink.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 5:03:27

Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

Ha ha ;-) I think I get the point :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 8:46:29

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

I think the best learning experience would be to approach the project incrementally. First swap out the nut and saddle with bone. Doing that in itself is a good project. See how it sounds and if you like it then consider the tuner upgrade.

The top refinish is pretty drastic stuff and you might end up ruining the guitar in the process, but if it really is a cheap enough guitar to have a decal rosette, maybe it doesn’t matter. Treating it as a series of mini projects is a great way to learn, however, with each step helping to develop new skills.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 10:36:36

etta

Posts: 341
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

Leave it alone; if you want to improve the guitar have a three inch port done in the middle of the upper bout (side not top). Then you might replace the saddle with bone and maybe the nut. I can't see why we should worry about the cosmetics of an "entry level" guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 16:14:50

JasonM

Posts: 2052
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to etta)

Not a bad idea with the sound port Etta. I’ve heard removing polyurethane finish is a bear of a job especially on the sides I would imagine. But I would still hit of Estebanana on the sticker advice!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 16:39:01

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

Before you attack the sides with your Bintner 5000 3HP hole driller, be aware that there is no guarantee that adding a sound port is going to improve the guitar. If there was, every guitar would have one already. Besides the obvious things like changing to better nut and saddle materials and doing a proper set-up, messing with a guitar does not always result in a better instrument.

But if the guitar is a junker and you don’t mind destroying it in the interests of a higher education, then using it as a vehicle to improve your skills isn’t a terrible thing. Just be careful not to draw any hard conclusions from limited data-sets. The operative concept is skill development, and the word junker also holds significance.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 18:12:04

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

If it were me I would leave it without a rosette/sticker. Or just put some Lego Movie 2 stickers around the hole - my son has some he could send you

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 23:43:21

Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

Well... thanks everybody.. for you encouraging words.

See you all next year on the International Guitar Building competition where they will dictated a special category to me and my builds... :-)

In the mean time sit back and learn from a master to be. Today I started shaping my bridge bone... No hospital intervention needed... so that is a great first step.... :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2020 15:03:36

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to RobF)

quote:

there is no guarantee that adding a sound port is going to improve the guitar.

Absolutely false. Jason McGuire proved it to himself on camera Many many moons ago.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2020 18:23:06

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Absolutely false. Jason McGuire proved it to himself on camera Many many moons ago.

Don’t know if you’re joking or not, but remember what I said about drawing hard conclusions from limited data-sets? Engineering 101.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2020 19:51:32

ernandez R

Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schieper

Well... thanks everybody.. for you encouraging words.

See you all next year on the International Guitar Building competition where they will dictated a special category to me and my builds... :-)

In the mean time sit back and learn from a master to be. Today I started shaping my bridge bone... No hospital intervention needed... so that is a great first step.... :-)

Did someone say hospital? Be careful you would t be the first to have an opertinty to stain his guitar top a deep dark red playing with wood tools the first time ;) That being said you it might give you a leg up at that IGB compaction if only so you can piss on the lesser entrients. Of course with your stellar rossette ring you could knock it out of the solar system but I'm thinking no farther then Uranus...

HR (going to the dark side cause the BS hasn't )

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2020 21:01:26

Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

Thanks all for your moral support.

After 3 hours of true and epic craftsmanship, the new bone nut is ready. Lowered strings from 5 to 3.2 mm and still no string buzz...

Keep posted for more epic craftmanship :-)

Now I am having a drink and feel satisfied.

Pictures before:

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2020 21:31:43

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

OK, so first off, good job! Second, I don’t think that’s a decal rosette, it looks like a real deal wooden mosaic one to me. And finally, I wouldn’t mess with that top, it’s fine, please don’t do anything there. It may be a laminated entry level guitar but some of those older Taiwanese made, Japanese designed student guitars can have a really good sound. I have an old Arias classical I paid $20 for that kicks the proverbial butt. I know, I know, data set of one...

If you were able to get the action down to 3.2mm and it plays well then you might have a keeper, perhaps a worthy candidate for a tuner upgrade. You might even consider putting a golpeador on it. For that, Ricardo is your man, he swaps out golpeadors more often than some people change pants.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2020 22:33:38

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

Also, just a quick word on soundports...before any of the true believers around here get too uncomfortable hopping around with their undergarments tied up in a variety of twists and knots, let me remind them that it was not that long ago, on this very Foro, that I recommended the use of soundports as part of my comprehensive solution towards eliminating the nagging problem of neck dive experienced by one of our members when using his air guitar. I believe it’s now captured in the literature under the heading of the “Eton Solution”.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2020 0:09:23

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

Job well done! I agree with Rob here, the top and rosette look fine. What you call brown lacquer may actually be a clear-ish finish over a Cedar top. You could check the color of the top by looking inside through the sound hole.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2020 0:28:18

JasonM

Posts: 2052
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to RobF)

Seems like soundports were all the rage 10 years ago and now they are out of fashion. They made for good ashtrays in case you had to smoke one in the middle of a dance class.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2020 2:22:58

Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

Again Thanks Rob and Andy. Now you made me doubt my restyling adventure.

Guitar plays nice and sounds cool. Trebles are a bit tiny but maybe with different strings that can be helped a bit

My idea was to grind the top so the seemingly a tad lighter soundboard becomes available and then use a clear frensch polisch for coolnes. (any apply a new rosette sticker :-) )

Then again, I yesterday informed myself of the "adventures of applying frensh polish" and I have to say I am still dazzeled by that. That sounds like a lot and difficult work. So I sort of changed that plan to grinding and spraying a can of nitrocelulose lack on...

I mean, there is no harm in getting the existing layer of finish off.. It is not like I will be drilling a soundport :-)

Worst case; somebody offered me Lego stickers I can put on to masque any mistakes I made by re-painting ;-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2020 9:29:43

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

The problem isn’t the rosette as much as it could be a laminated top. If it is, there is a real danger that you’ll sand through the laminate while removing the finish, at which point the guitar will be pretty well ruined.

I wouldn’t classify this one as a junker. I don’t know how old it is, but it could be a 40 year old instrument? Those older entry level Yamahas may not have been expensive but they weren’t necessarily bad guitars. I just don’t think it’s a suitable candidate for experimentation, the top looks good, it doesn’t appear to need any fixing.

I know this’ll probably come across like I’m standing on some kind of soap box, but if there ever was a Prime Directive for Lutherie, it should be to do no harm, and to not alter instruments beyond what is necessary to bring them to health. Remember, one person’s garbage might be another’s treasure.

Think of it this way...You can learn all sorts of good things from setting up this guitar. New nut and saddle, possibly new tuners, sort out the frets if necessary, make it into something playable. Now, once that’s done, picture it in the hands of a talented child who lives in an underprivileged situation. It might be the last thing they gaze upon before falling to sleep at night, astonished at their great fortune to have been blessed with an object of such wonderment and beauty.

Or it can get its top trashed and become a planter in someone’s garden. Know what I mean?

I guess it’s all just a matter of perspective. But I also think you’ll do the right thing and leave the top alone. At least, that’s my feeling.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2020 13:38:05

Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

Rob, your opinion is as always much appreciated as well as your " holistic" view on things. No soapboxing at all.

It indeed is around 40 years old. From the 80's. The idea was to have a cheaper guitar that I could take around on a sailing trip I will be taking. And with some tweaking might be able to enhance the sound and at the same time give it some esthetica that I am contemplating for a while.

Initially I indeed thought I just buy a Lidl (US variant of Wall-Mart) entrance guitar for 25 euro's or so. But then I thought that as I would be putting some work in and with the aim of keeping this guitar as a travel companion, I better would start of with some more solid basis. Hence the Yamaha which in itself is indeed a solid guitar.

You made me doubt. Anyway I currently do not have the required time for a proper project so it will be brought along as is :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2020 18:57:58

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to Schieper)

quote:

Anyway I currently do not have the required time for a proper project so it will be brought along as is :-)

Great! Personally, I think it’s a pretty cool old guitar as it is and it’s going to give you a lot of pleasure. That you’ve been able to get the action down to 3.2mm without excessive buzzing speaks volumes about the quality of some of those old ‘entry-level’ Yamahas.

I went to an exhibition for the Casa Ferrer held in Granada last year and one of the guitars included in the displays was a very nice Yamaha from I think the seventies.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2020 20:55:14

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Centering new rosette sticker (in reply to RobF)

quote:

Personally, I think it’s a pretty cool old guitar as it is and it’s going to give you a lot of pleasure.

This just gave me a flash back. My dad had one of these for students to use in his office at American University. After my father died its existence surprised My mother and I. I used it briefly for fun before heading off to college. My mom sold it or gave it to someone. Anyway years later I got seriously into Flamenco and purchased my first proper Flamenco guitar after graduation; a 1997 conde A26, my main axe till the present. I had a girlfriend opera singer at the time, still at school. I remember being at her apartment down at school and her roommate had one of these Yamahas, must have been the same model. I vividly recall spending some hours going back and forth between the two, trying to understand what’s the true difference between a $150 guitar and a $4000 guitar 😂. Of course I didn’t have the same technique at the time, but I had made a transcription of Jucal, and was amazed at how the genius of the composition could pull out so many great qualities of any guitar.

Any way I concluded the main difference in the price tag was due to the nut width.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2020 21:09:56