RE: Syncopation in flamenco

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tf10music

Posts: 112
Joined: Jan. 3 2017

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

A part of the reason is because these forms are actually not “in 12”. The math of 12 is a common emergent property of the compas patterns of those forms. Inevitably students who note its frequency (or worse, taught this as a rule) are shocked by the so called “half compas” phrases, not limited to but most common found in bulerias.

Yes, this is a great way of putting it! I'm getting better at making it work with the soleá, in which the half-compás phrases make intuitive sense to me, but it's been more of a struggle with the bulería thus far. I still haven't adapted to the flow/bricolage of patterned elements that can be 'closed' at any time with a 7-8-9-10 phrase, despite decidedly not being in 12. I have let go of counting in 12 completely in the bulería, but my muscle memory hasn't yet, because I spent all that time developing bad habits.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2020 20:17:14

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to tf10music)

quote:

In my opinion, the best way to internalize docetiempo is to sit across from a guitarist who already has it mastered and play along with them.

I agree with you. But one should understand the basics before and know what is happening rhythmically and harmonically in flamenco music. Based on that one should do what you mentioned here.

Playing along with the greats, CD or live bootlegs is a must. That's how I learnt to play guitar. I skipped the 1st step. I had no clue about the basic elements of music - rhythm, harmony and melody. I didn't even know what beat is. But I did know what a chord is. And that's all. Later I understood beat is the skeleton and rhythm is the heart of the music. Without rhythm music won't exist. Without beat music will exist but it will sound chaotic.

Flamenco is different. Rhythmically more challenging. Harmonically simple but dissonant. And the right hand techniques make flamenco sound complex. That's why one has to go through what I mentioned in my post above.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2020 21:39:12

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Inevitably students who note its frequency (or worse, taught this as a rule) are shocked by the so called “half compas” phrases, not limited to but most common found in bulerias.

From what I understand half compas is just a repetition of a 6 beat phrase. Honestly, when I read about half compas first I was not shocked because something similar happens in popular songs as well. A good example is at 2:47-3:00.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2020 21:50:20

tf10music

Posts: 112
Joined: Jan. 3 2017

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

But one should understand the basics before and know what is happening rhythmically and harmonically in flamenco music.[...]Later I understood beat is the skeleton and rhythm is the heart of the music. Without rhythm music won't exist. Without beat music will exist but it will sound chaotic.

But that's just the issue, my guy...what are 'the basics?' You are saying that one needs to begin with a systematized way of understanding things like beat and rhythm in order to comprehend a style of music that does not operate according to that logic. Do you see your own cognitive dissonance there? The fact is that plenty of students walk into flamenco guitar lessons without understanding the time signatures or beat structure of compás and learn by internalizing the music itself.

I'm not trying to say that there's no counting at all...the point is that it can't be schematized so easily, and so the base should be 'what's going on,' not 'what can be abstracted into a template.' Particularly when the template has a tough time describing what's going on.

People tried to do something similar when they wanted to schematize the blues -- they reduced it to a 12 bar and more rarely an 8 bar format. But the fact is that there have been 9 bar blues recorded, and when they played live band leaders often added added or subtracted bars whenever they saw fit...the band was expected to follow along. Now a lot of that variability has been squeezed out. It would be a shame to see the same thing happen to flamenco (it already might be in progress, in some ways -- I'm sure I've seen Ricardo expound on that topic in other threads)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 0:54:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

From what I understand half compas is just a repetition of a 6 beat phrase.

Well, the phrase itself can stand alone is the thing. From one perspective, music has been added (a repetition of something), from another subtracted (something has been omitted musically). However the truth is it’s neither. It is the result of the true base of the compas being felt, and this time it simply doesn’t add or count out to “12”, because both 12 and your previous hemeola or 5 accent concepts are simply NOT fundamental, they are as I said “emergent” aspects.

And your “it’s alright” is not a great example, because the song composed is not a “song form” from which one can say this one version is different somehow.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 4:29:50

JasonM

Posts: 2052
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

Yup, I was definitely stuck in the 12’s for a long time! I thought 6 structure was just a Jerez thing. The curtain was lifted when I was listing to Vicente amigo and trying to tap the rhythm and realized he can’t be possibly feeling bulerias in 12’s. Then Ricardo’s 3/4 time thing clicked and I realized how simple it was and how complicated I was making it. But I still wouldn’t bet money that I could catch a half compas all the time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2020 16:11:15

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to tf10music)

quote:

You are saying that one needs to begin with a systematized way of understanding things like beat and rhythm in order to comprehend a style of music that does not operate according to that logic.

Maybe I should call flamenco police?

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2020 20:43:12

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)

I just came across this article of Mr. Baime in Jaleo magazine. According to him this is one of the earlier recordings introducing syncopation to flamenco guitar playing.

https://www.discogs.com/Fernanda-Y-Bernarda-De-Utrera-El-Cante-De-Fernanda-Y-Bernarda-De-Utrera/release/11991981

Side A

Side B
https://youtu.be/ZPGj0esw6TA

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2020 21:21:31

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)

Niño Ricardo, "Recital de Guitarra Flamenca 1940-1950" at 4:19.

Ramon Montoya, 1936 starting around 1:40

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2020 1:25:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

I just came across this article of Mr. Baime in Jaleo magazine. According to him this is one of the earlier recordings introducing syncopation to flamenco guitar playing.

1. As usual the video you chose is blocked ie not available.
2. Diego Del Gastor often did 3:2 same as the niño ricardo (older) examples discussed.

Ramon Montoya falseta is moving the tempo up gradually, it’s not really synchopation IMO.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2020 14:55:27