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Inglés

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 20 2017
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to mark indigo

Thanks Mark, I'll have a closer look into some of that stuff when I have a chance.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2020 14:51:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12682
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

He spent some time on Bulerias accompaniment to cante. I don’t play Bulerias or accompany cante but it was still useful. The message was soak it in, feel it, interact with it. Listen (we used


You should have a go at the old cante accompaniment thread, the buleria on page one is a perfect exercise for students.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2020 0:40:04

payaso

 

Posts: 81
Joined: Dec. 7 2014
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Please help me. I thought it was OK to enjoy learning to play some flamenco, even I could never aspire to be a professional flamenco guitarist. But now I find that some forum members are saying that this kind of interest is ‘guiri’ . I researched the word and although it has had various meanings it is nowadays generally used as a disparaging term for foreigners, especially foreign tourists. This seems strange as I do not think those forum members are gitanos, and I always believed that there were respected flamenco performers who were or are not gitanos from Andalucía. What worries me is that if it’s guiri for me to attempt to play flamenco, then surely all flamenco enthusiasts who are not Andalusian gitanos are guilty of ‘cultural appropriation’, and should desist. But players of the Blues are not subject to similar condemnation, are they? Maybe I should just stick to – well what?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 11:49:00
 
Piwin

Posts: 3164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to payaso

I think you're reading too much into this. The RAE dictionary only says that it's a colloquial term meaning "foreign tourist". That's it. Any connotation, pejorative or otherwise, is dependent on context. That said, people I've asked before have said that to them it's more of a caricature of a tourist, which implies some degree of judgment. But most of the time when I hear it it's more of a light joke than anything, and usually when people use it straight to my face, even though it does play on the fact that I'm a foreigner, what they're really saying is "you're such a noob". Of course, if you're speaking seriously and you call somebody who's been living here 20 years a "guiri", then sure it can be disparaging, but that would also be true of the term "tourist"...

When flyeogh's teacher refers to "guiri" material, he's certainly not thinking of cultural appropriation or about not wanting foreigners to learn flamenco.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 14:07:29
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

When flyeogh's teacher refers to "guiri" material, he's certainly not thinking of cultural appropriation or about not wanting foreigners to learn flamenco.


Payaso I'm sorry if my quotes from my maestros have given you a false impression. Piwin has it spot on.

Both my maestros, Paco and Moises, are so supportive of my efforts - well beyond the call of duty. And whenever they mention 'guiri' they are always laughing. But it is me that uses the term more than them. And they are referring to materials. Clearly they are embedded in the culture and their approach to learning is very different to that of the books of Juan Martin as an example. They don't start with a tab - they start with a feeling.

ps That said all due respect to Juan Martin. He has probably introduced more foreigners to Flamenco guitar than anyone on the planet.

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 14:25:53
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to payaso

quote:

I thought it was OK to enjoy learning to play some flamenco, even I could never aspire to be a professional flamenco guitarist. But now I find that some forum members are saying that this kind of interest is ‘guiri’ .


I don't think any forum member is saying this at all. flyeogh/Nigel quoted his teacher (as he says, embedded in the culture) referring to a book, so as long as you are learning flamenco from a teacher, or from video or audio recordings you are ok.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 18:27:59
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3016
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to Piwin

Guiri--

Headed back to Merida, Yucatan after six weeks in the jungles of Mexico and northern Guatemala, in our six-year old Ford pickup with Texas license plates, the three of us looked and felt like we had been rode hard and put up wet: unshaven, unbathed, dog tired, caked with mud because the beginning of the rains had caught us out in the high jungle. I was driving, the other two dozing beside me.

We came upon a police checkpoint a few miles outside of Merida. It was the year of the Bay of Pigs invasion. Authorities all over southern Mexico were alert, maybe a bit nervous. The police flagged us down. One mounted the running board on the my side and looked in. He stepped halfway back down, turned to his companions and called out, "¡Ay caramba, puro gringos!"

"Gringo" had a slightly pejorative connotation in that time and place. Americans were pretty rare in Yucatan in 1961. My companions woke up. One muttered, "What's up?"

"Bunch of pepper belly cops," I replied, making sure they all could hear.

The one on the running board paused, surveyed us again, then broke out laughing. "Los papeles por favor, amigos," he requested.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 4:24:51
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12682
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to payaso

quote:

ORIGINAL: payaso

Please help me. I thought it was OK to enjoy learning to play some flamenco, even I could never aspire to be a professional flamenco guitarist. But now I find that some forum members are saying that this kind of interest is ‘guiri’ . I researched the word and although it has had various meanings it is nowadays generally used as a disparaging term for foreigners, especially foreign tourists. This seems strange as I do not think those forum members are gitanos, and I always believed that there were respected flamenco performers who were or are not gitanos from Andalucía. What worries me is that if it’s guiri for me to attempt to play flamenco, then surely all flamenco enthusiasts who are not Andalusian gitanos are guilty of ‘cultural appropriation’, and should desist. But players of the Blues are not subject to similar condemnation, are they? Maybe I should just stick to – well what?


To be honest it’s WAY more acceptable and even flattering and economically/financially desirable that outsiders get involved in the art than it was in say the 60s or 70s. Flamenco teachers, many Gitano, live off those touristing students. Further more they are friends with them, have pride in their ability as students, and even encourage the top ones to assist With teaching. I’m sure covid hurt their industry terribly this year.

But to be clear, let’s not sugar coat the issue. Paco de lucia was extremely nervous about performing with Mairena in 1974, for this very reason. He is not Gypsy, he is payo, an outsider. The further away you get from the bloodline, the village or neighborhood even, the MORE the student must prove himself. It’s a sign of respect. In the end, not unlike a fraternity hazing process, once you are in you are in for life. It doesn’t mean that Agujetas will accept you as his equal...he even thought Camaron was BS. But if SOME of the community accepts the work you have put in to learn the art in a respectful manner, you are certainly fine.

Blues and jazz is no different. Miles forced the other guys to accept working with that nerdy white intruding culture appropriator Bill Evens on every tune EXCEPT Freddy freeloader, a proper blues, on which they enlisted one of their own. To pretend that this issue only exists in certain racist mentality groups and that it’s not important, or an excuse to give up learning deeper level stuff, well, that’s also insulting to the art form.

Acknowledge it’s real, and keep learning and working towards excellence and you will be accepted by those that truly matter.

As for myself, the deepest connection I have felt to the art form was accompanying Agujetas brother in a bar in 2009. People told him I was american he told them I was lying to them, I was not only from Spain somewhere but also gitano puro.

Second closest was perhaps playing for Esperanza 2011. She asked for me again last year but the event was cancelled, the fact she asked for me is what gives me pride about it as an outsider.


Despite these, and the countless times I’ve worked with the real gitanos in pro situations, I’m not going to pretend I’m one OF them... that I am anymore than a respectful intruder that has paid his dues to be there. And I’m fine with that. I’m an American, American Metal is my “music”, my art, and I’m ok with that. It doesn’t prevent me from looking ever deeper into Flamenco.



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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 22:26:44
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Paco de lucia was extremely nervous about performing with Mairena in 1974, for this very reason.

I thought that was because of Mairena being traditional/puro and Paco being modern/new (he'd already released Entre dos Aguas single in the charts). I think he said he tried to channel Melchor in his playing for that gig! I guess both things, the gitano/payo thing as well?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 8:28:22
 
Piwin

Posts: 3164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I’m an American, American Metal is my “music”, my art, and I’m ok with that


It must be nice to have a safe space to fall back on.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 9:37:19
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12682
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Paco de lucia was extremely nervous about performing with Mairena in 1974, for this very reason.

I thought that was because of Mairena being traditional/puro and Paco being modern/new (he'd already released Entre dos Aguas single in the charts). I think he said he tried to channel Melchor in his playing for that gig! I guess both things, the gitano/payo thing as well?


Yes, the age gap and reputation made it worse. He finally admitted in La Busqueda, that despite all the touring and studio work with Camaron, he didn’t really know him that well on a personal level. Why do you think that was? Why do you think, in Rito y Geografia , it was Cepero doing all the accompanying of Camaron with paco sitting right there? And then they watch him do ONE of two solos before taking off from the bar? Or how come the dynamic duo has only ONE televised performance together, ONE! Well, to me, after hanging with gitanos, it’s obvious.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 16:32:32
 
RobF

Posts: 951
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

But to be clear, let’s not sugar coat the issue. Paco de lucia was extremely nervous about performing with Mairena in 1974, for this very reason. He is not Gypsy, he is payo, an outsider.


I thought Mairena was payo, too? *edit* Sorry, just checked. Apparently, he was Gitano, I don’t know why I thought otherwise.

quote:

And then they watch him do ONE of two solos before taking off from the bar?


I wonder how much that has to do with it being solo guitar.

I was lucky enough to go to the tribute concert for Manolete in Granada last spring. I went mainly because of the advertised stellar line-up of top performers - half of whom didn’t even show. I was sitting up in a balcony seat and one thing I noticed was whenever a solo guitarist took the stage, one third of the audience got up and walked out either to go to the bathroom or maybe just for a smoke, one third were either silent or chatting with the person next to them, and the final third turned the theatre into a sea of lit up mobile phone screens as people checked their mail or texted each other. Once it returned to dance or cante the audience was in full attendance and attentive again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 16:44:57
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12682
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to RobF

quote:

I thought Mairena was payo, too?


*ducks for cover*

quote:

one third of the audience got up and walked out either to go to the bathroom or maybe just for a smoke, o


Camaron and Cepero...typical casual Flamenco audience going types afraid to smoke indoors after killing two packs in 40 minutes? Sure.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 16:56:48
 
RobF

Posts: 951
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Camaron and Cepero...typical casual Flamenco audience going types afraid to smoke indoors after killing two packs in 40 minutes? Sure.


Point taken.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 17:04:33
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

He finally admitted in La Busqueda, that despite all the touring and studio work with Camaron, he didn’t really know him that well on a personal level. Why do you think that was? Why do you think, in Rito y Geografia , it was Cepero doing all the accompanying of Camaron with paco sitting right there? And then they watch him do ONE of two solos before taking off from the bar? Or how come the dynamic duo has only ONE televised performance together, ONE! Well, to me, after hanging with gitanos, it’s obvious.


Yeah, yeah, I get it!

But then why all the recordings and touring together? Were the recording contracts arranged by Antonio Sanchez or something? Surely Camaron could have recorded with anyone? And even if AS was arranging recording contracts/sessions, surely he could have toured with a fellow Gitano if that was his preference?

The programme on Camarón could be anything - could be PDL was touring somewhere and not available. I have read that as PDL's manager Antonio Sanchez tried to limit his accompanying work in favour of solo work, and unless it had "Colaboracion Especial" status, so maybe that was part of the reason he doesn't accompany in the Rito film where they are all in the bar? BTW I have no idea if that is true, and the source is Pohren's "Masterplan" book....

The two solos are El Tempul/Plazuela Bulerías and Rondeña, yes? and Camarón, Turronero and Cepero accompany Paco por bulerias.... no need for them to be on camera for the Rondeña....

Really, don't know so I'm not arguing any of these points as definite, and I know that Gitano's sticking together is a big thing, but can't help wondering about these things....

I thought RobF's point about the smoking was that generally flamenco aficionados in Spain are not interested in solo guitar.... a third of the audience got up and left the auditorium for whatever reason (in 2019 that includes smoking, different rules to early '70's).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 18:15:30
 
RobF

Posts: 951
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Dangerous slope away from flamnc... (in reply to mark indigo

Not to sidetrack the discussion too much, but one performer who really impressed me at that concert was Pitingo. His presentation wasn’t traditional, but he comes across as a very well-rounded, solid, and effective entertainer. I’d go to one of his concerts any day. Another who I really enjoyed was Arcángel. I’ve not listened to his recordings very often, but he really delivers the goods live.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 18:33:55
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