Saddle doesn't sit completely on the bridge

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Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

Saddle doesn't sit completely on the...

Hello there Foroflamenco community,

I have a question,
I noticed that my Alhambra 7fc's saddle doesn't completely sit on the bridge.
What i mean by this is that when you look at the saddle, i see a very tiny space between the saddle and the bridge, Is that normal?
I also see some sort of a very small forward tilt of the saddle toward the sound hole due to the fact that it doesn't sit completely on the bridge. Is that also normal? I read somewhere that luthiers make this intentionally to provide some down force and allow for more flamenco sound of some sort.
A reply would be much appreciated.

Thank you

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 4:58:09

Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

A picture of how the saddle is not completely sitting on the bridge

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 12:20:36

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

Unfortunately it looks like someone slightly butchered the bottom of the saddle slot. Hard to tell if it extends down the whole slot or it's just at the end. The slot should be square with the saddle sitting squarely on the bottom. The forward tilt seen on some guitars is likely just the result of time and string pull slightly twisting the bridge.

It's not the end of the world but the guitar might work a little more efficiently if you got that fixed. Two things a luthier could possibly do - 1. re-rout the saddle slot to make it square since there is still enough wood to work with, or 2. make a new saddle with the bottom shaped to mate with the bottom of the slot.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 12:35:31

Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

Now if you look at the right side of the saddle pathway, you would see some sort of a small bulge that extends all the pathway till the end...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 12:45:47

Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

See if you look closely, you can actually see through the slight space between then bridge and saddle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 12:52:53

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

Yep, that's daylight there. Certainly not ideal.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 12:56:36

Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Well that's unfortunate..
I bought this guitar a month ago and just today i realized this..
And also its so hard to find a good luthier to fix it for me..like where I live

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 13:05:16

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

Honestly, if you like the guitar I wouldn't worry about it too much. People forget that the saddle is still making contact with the bridge through the walls of the slot.
We have a tendency to obsess or worry about these imperfections but again, if you like the the sound and playability of the guitar, don't let this ruin that enjoyment.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 13:35:05

Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Well im clearly obsessed about that thing but your words comforted me. I love this guitar so much. Its my first flamenco guitar ever. Thank you for your help, much appreciated.

One more quick question, does this slight imperfection affect the action? Does it make it higher?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 13:47:29

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

quote:

One more quick question, does this slight imperfection affect the action? Does it make it higher?

I guess I don't quite understand the question but the action height was presumably set with the saddle the way it is, so it's not affecting the action. I think you mentioned in your other post that the action was about 2.5 mm which is nice and low.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 13:57:24

Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Yeah it is 2.5mm. But i thought that if this issue was not there it would be even lower than 2.5mm since you can see that little space you know..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 14:13:19

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

After a certain point lower does not = better as you start getting too much fret buzz. Most guitars can't tolerate much under 2.5 mm.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 14:16:46

Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

This was really helpful. Thank you very much.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 14:21:37

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

Maybe you can put a shim under the bone.
That will solve a bit, if not the most of your problem.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 16:12:52

Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to gerundino63)

I don't know were to get one of those and properly install them..
I saw some videos and they require some technique. But thank you for your suggestion

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 16:44:19

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

With a shim I mean a tiny strip of wood that fist between the bridge and the saddle.
On that way, the bone makes contact again.

Most cigar shops sell cederwood to light the cigars, so there you probably can buy a piece of cederwood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 19:58:56

Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to gerundino63)

I'll look for it
Thanks again, Much appreciated ✋

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 21:50:43

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

Maybe you can put a shim under the bone.
That will solve a bit, if not the most of your problem.

I was gonna say that .... also it is almost as if a piezo were designed to seat in that slot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 22:21:33

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

Ziyad,

I once had a woman visit my shop and she complained that her Ramirez guitar had a loose saddle that leaned forward and ruined the harmonics.

So I replaced the saddle and gave a lower and better action to the guitar.

She played it and then she put the old saddle back; saying that the old saddle made the guitar sound better..........go figure:-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 22:56:00

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 21 2022 21:49:34

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2020 23:09:21

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

For example, https://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Types_of_Tools/Files/Saddle_Slot_Levelers.html

StewMac has thought of everything, haven't they :D

It's actually interesting to think about why it's important to have good contact between the saddle and the bottom of the slot. If you're supposed to lose tone and volume from not having good contact, that means that some of the energy from the vibration of the strings is being dissipated without going into the top or is not moving the top effectively. But where is that energy going exactly. Of course I build my guitars with the saddle flush to the bottom of the slot but it would be interesting to do an A/B comparison with this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2020 0:53:16

Ziyad H.

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2019

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

Thank you for your advices, people.
Now i have an idea or two about how to deal with this issue. Im just too afraid to ruin this beautiful guitar. It's really hard to take any decision haha

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2020 1:17:44

mrstwinkle

Posts: 551
Joined: May 14 2017

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Ziyad H.)

Replacement bone saddles are cheap. Hit up ebay. Keep the original as a template / insurance and sand down a nrw one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2020 7:58:41

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 21 2022 21:50:00

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2020 11:28:34

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to El Burdo)

El Burdo,

This has already been done before with many ways of contact to the bridge, even a friend of mine used circuit board material for translating sound; even saddles with split groves of contact.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2020 13:49:35

JasonM

Posts: 2052
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Maybe there is a point of diminishing return so to speak. Like the saddle transfers vibration like electricity and only needs so much continuity to transfer adequately. I don’t know

I put an undersized saddle I had lying around on my new guitar while I was doing a setup. Basically a 1/8th saddle in a 3/32 slot. I just needed something in the slot temporarily. A few days went by and I forgot about the saddle and tuned up the guitar. I could not tell a difference! The saddle had no business being in there under tension!

As far as saddle thickness, I think Trevor Gore talks about minimizing the area of contact between the string and the saddle. Seems contrary to logic.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2020 15:45:05

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to JasonM)

I know this has been done to death but this is why I developed fine tuning, to adjust these slight differences in tonal value which might be effected by parts of the guitar.

Normally the treble end comes out clean and clear with the tuning adjustments.

This is what I finally arrived at when I'd tried most other sound techniques under the sun:-)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2020 15:58:31

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2020 19:30:45

El Burdo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2020 19:36:34

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Saddle doesn't sit completely on... (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

Hi Tom - Was there a conclusion?

Yes, I found that the phenolic material in the circuit board gave a better transfer of sound but that its appearance was not that great, so years later I developed fine tuning.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2020 21:30:46