RE: new build for 68'Conde style flamenco

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RE: new build for 68' Conde style flamenco

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

I was wondering why you haven’t built with cypress in a while. These classical snobs need to get over it!

YEAH!!! But it's really getting out of hand with wood cost, as good Mediterranean cypress seems to cost more than Rosewood these days.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2019 16:01:17

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is another pre-finished Conde style in the white.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2019 16:07:26

JasonM

Posts: 2054
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Boy that sounds good!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2019 16:19:30

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

OK, this is going to have to be a collectable with 50 year old actual Granada cypress and a 1980's Nagavary Spruce top; just one left in my shop files. And a rosette that comes close to Nino Ricardo's style, with his head design.

Now we’re cooking! Looking forward to following this one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2019 18:00:06

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobF)

Here is another video but I've changed the method for the bridge caul by adding magnets in the caul and then magnetizing the inside by adding outside magnets to position the caul inside.

I'll take another video to show the difference.

The basic difference here is to go back to the original with flat pyramid bracing but with some of the fine tuning technique. This video shows bracing with rounded tops instead of pyramided on top. this " ( " instead of this "< "

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2019 22:04:29

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I apologize but I'm going to have to use what I have in my shop to build with.

The 1988 Granada cypress is missing the sides which I probably shipped to a buyer of most of my wood.

So I'll use what I see as best for the style being built.

Paco Lucia played with rosewood sides and back.

This build will be no different. The Barbero style rosette will most likely be used.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2019 16:35:10

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I'm still looking around for a nice set of cypress but haven't found any yet.

Also, found the older 68 Conde build with a lot of info that you can look at until I get to building the original fan brace style.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/printable.asp?m=267133

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=267133&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#267133

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2019 21:52:38

ernandez R

Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tom,
Hoping this question hasn't been asked too may times. What are your personal requirements for acceptable cypress? Is it a grain thing, mass, tap tone?

Do you prefer straight unblemished grain and think it makes a superior flamenco or not?

Has the quality gone down so much that it is not available at any price?

What is the best source. I did notice Stephen's recent thread about one vender being prablamatic.

Last question, for tonight ;) , what thickness to you like to thin your Cyprus sides.

Thank you for your time,

HR

ps. Rooting for you as you do battle with what ails you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2019 6:56:17

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to ernandez R)

quote:

Tom,
Hoping this question hasn't been asked too may times. What are your personal requirements for acceptable cypress? Is it a grain thing, mass, tap tone?

quote:

Do you prefer straight unblemished grain and think it makes a superior flamenco or not? [unquote]

I prefer the sides be fairly straight grain for bending, as some cypress is more breakable without it. And the straighter the grain, generally the more notable price for the market.

quote:

Has the quality gone down so much that it is not available at any price? [unquote]

I haven't checked the Italian cypress supply so I'm not sure.

quote:

What is the best source. I did notice Stephen's recent thread about one vendor being problematic. [unquote]

I haven't ordered cypress for quite some time.

quote:

Last question, for tonight ;) , what thickness to you like to thin your Cyprus sides. Thank you for your time, [unquote]

Depends on the stiffness but I normally finish out about 1.8 MM upper bout to 2 MM around the bottom bout.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2019 14:45:56

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tom, best wishes for a speedy return to health. Let me know if you want to look at some of the Cypress I have, I wouldn't mind letting a set go.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2020 23:05:26

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

Let me know if you want to look at some of the Cypress I have, I wouldn't mind letting a set go.

Andy. I'm astounded at your generosity to sell some of your cypress to me for this 68' Conde build. Today I have to call LMI and talk with Chris about a supply that he mentioned to me last week. I may have to entertain your generous off. I'll let you know.

Mil Gracias.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2020 13:46:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Andy,

I went ahead and ordered a set of cypress from LMI so I'll see how it turns out.

I thank you for your offer.

Also I ordered two bridges from Stu Mac, classical style rose-wood, and I'll check them out.

It seems that the size will be about right for the Conde style bridge, with a little adjustment on the arm length and possible replacement with the tie block design, which was done with maple trim instead of cow bone.

I have an extra tie block design I can install, which leads me back to the thought of making professional bridges for classical guitar builders.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 3 2020 2:20:50

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Andy,

I went ahead and ordered a set of cypress from LMI so I'll see how it turns out.

I thank you for your offer.

No problem. Another wood that's getting harder to find, at least Stateside.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 3 2020 12:52:47

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Thanks Andy,

The old school way of investing was nearly always buy low, sell high, to gain some profit in the market place.

Today there seems to be certain facets of market place investment that cause a price position to drop off without any rhyme nor reason, but this can reveal a more competitive edge with new business opportunities that appear overnight.

So with this springboard effect in place, we will sometimes have to wait very short periods of time until other sources of a certain product become available.

It seems that this activity in the market place will always be sure to supply a measure of some return, due to its necessary materials that are needed.

The good news is that there is still enough wood product available to buy from enterprises that have the foresight to manage their levels of price control.

When I order wood, I always ask for the best quality available and pay the price. Even with my social security check, there is enough left for me to be able to do this.

I build one guitar every 6 months, so saving a little each month for more wood, is not that hard to do.

And then when the big day comes for my guitar sale, I use the sale price to cover any additional expenses that may have been incurred during the building period.

There are other ways to do this but my goal is to have about a 5 guitar inventory and replenish as I go.

Right now I'm slight of the mark but if I continue to build, this is where I would like to be. This is my goal, God willing.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2020 16:14:29

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

to whom it may concern:

I bought 2 classical guitar bridges from Stu Mac and converted one to something very close to a Conde style bridge. Their maple tie block design peeled off with heat and I installed a bone design.

Also sanded quite a bit of wood off the bottom, tie block, and saddle slot on top to where it replicates the Conde style.

I'll try and show pictures of the finished bridge later this morning.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2020 14:50:39

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here are the pictures of the converted bridge.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (3)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2020 14:59:41

ernandez R

Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tom,

What is the length and width of this bridge?

Does this bridge have a deferent footprint then any of the other flamencos you like to build?

Do you weigh them?

I just completed two flamingo guitars ;) not vary traditional but mostly identical. On one I used a less dense piece of black walnut for the bridge and the other a much more dense piece of Hickory. Both were weighed without a saddle and finish at 16g but the Walnut one had a longer and wider footprint. Both about 7.5mm off the top at the saddle, ya I know cutting it close.

Both are different beasts but my partner says the one with the hickory bridge has more bass yet when I play her I hear more trebles... Strung up in the white to get the action where I want it so I'm sure both will brighten up a little after shellac.

Looking forward to more,

HR

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2020 7:29:56

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to ernandez R)

quote:

Both are different beasts but my partner says the one with the hickory bridge has more bass yet when I play her I hear more trebles... Strung up in the white to get the action where I want it so I'm sure both will brighten up a little after shellac.

I weigh my bridges by hand and feel because it will give me a sense of feel for the top fine tuning after the guitar has finish on it.

This is the basic difference for my techniques of tuning the top. Weight comparison is vital for those who practice the art but it doesn't do a complete job for me by itself, because there is certain nuance to be developed by fan brace polishing.

And this is really very microscopic, but I find it necessary for a complete job; at least for the way I tune the tops.

Note: I don't claim the only way but one of many ways to tune tops.

Essentially what I do is bring the top into compliance with the statement the bridge makes; taking into consideration the bridge's weight/density, etc. Sometimes I find it right away and other times I have to search for the tone I want.

Example: When I'm working on the Reyes plan, I always use a bridge that is compatible with the plan, then tune the rest of the top when needed.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2020 11:53:51

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to ernandez R)

quote:

I just completed two flamingo guitars ;) not vary traditional but mostly identical. On one I used a less dense piece of black walnut for the bridge and the other a much more dense piece of Hickory. Both were weighed without a saddle and finish at 16g but the Walnut one had a longer and wider footprint. Both about 7.5mm off the top at the saddle, ya I know cutting it close.

I have different heights for my saddle due to the size of the player's hands. I usually set the height at about 9 MM bass and 8 MM treble. The higher saddle height will usually determine a higher torque against the top, which, in my case......... and coupled with fine tuning, will strengthen the projection in performance.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2020 12:29:47

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

So far I have a 70's Miguel Rodriguez style geometric rosette that will fit the color scheme of the bridge's tie block design. I have one rosette left of the older rosette style, not the flower design.

I'll try and load the picture this afternoon.

I had a problem with some heavy resin pockets on the neck so I called Chris at LMII and he agreed to take it back and exchange it. Nice guy!

It appears that they stand behind their products.

BTW, the neck is a perfect fit for the 650 scale on this Conde style tutorial. Actually the Ibex ruler shows a perfect fit for its 25-21/32" including the compensation.

I have shortened the length of the box, at its upper bout, about 1/4" to achieve this.

I'll contact Tim at the GAL and see if he wants to publish a modified plan for this Spanish style model.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2020 17:12:11

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is the rosette and bridge.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2020 21:45:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Since there has been talk about the Rubner tuning machines on another thread, I decided to order a set to see their quality.

I ordered a set of artisan tuners w/lyre to go with this Conde style build.

I talked with a person who was a great help showing me how to order on their credit card line.

The cost was about equal to most other websites selling high style Gotoh machines, so I'm interested in seeing how the Rubner machines work out.

BTW, I thank Brian Burns for mentioning this brand.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2020 19:34:11

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Hello,

I ran into a slight problem with the inside heel/foot being too long for a flamenco box upper bout.

I thought....... just cut the whole inside heel off and then glue an additional foot on and shape it that way. But the more I thought about it, I decided to saw off part of the inside heel support and then shape it to fix the problem.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2020 21:19:20

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Hello again,

I finished off the inside heel and it looks good, also found a rosette that looks very close to a 50' 60's Conde style.

It's a R2 pattern from LMI, so I'll try to get my wife to take a picture of this one later on today.

A lot of this decision making is costing me money, so I'm going to stop at this point and hope for the best.

Pictures forth-coming.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2020 18:05:29

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

This is to show the difference between the LMII neck and the transition to a Conde size heel, which is shorter.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2020 23:35:20

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is the rosette for my final choice. This one is very close to the Conde style of the 60's. This is LMII R2 rosette.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2020 23:38:14

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is where I am with the heel carving; going slow but making a little progress.

This Spanish cedar is hard as nails but I'm getting through it.

I would much prefer to have a company do the heel carving with a CNC set-up. LMII sold this neck, (650) MM scale, to me and the neck ideal is good but the supplier should have at least carved the heel to a manageable level near being finished rather than cause so much additional labor to fix it.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2020 21:01:24

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here's the finish of the carving, then by file and sandpaper.....

I wanted to carve as much as possible to keep up with my carving skills.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2020 22:15:59

JasonM

Posts: 2054
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Looks good Tom. I’ve thought about CNC for the heel. For me there are two challenges, making a jig to hold the neck on its side so that is stable and accurately aligned, then flip the neck over to do the other side of the heel. Second challenge would be drawing the heel in CAD. The most complex thing I’ve done so far was the bridge because it was a 3D model. Same for the heel. I’ll do some brain storming...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2020 20:52:22

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to JasonM)

Jason,

Some guitar makers have got this carving time down to about 10 minutes but I don't have that skill. So there must be an easier way to use CNC so that the majority of Builders have the opportunity to cut labor time.

I'd like to think that CNC is the way to go with the majority of carving time.

I'd like to figure out a way to make necks for the 2003 Reyes style, the 1977 Miguel Rodriguez classical guitar plan and possibly the 1968 Conde style Flamenco guitar plan, as well as the 1980's Arcangel Fernandez plan, which would also fit the Barbero style neck plan.

This would take some major thinking for a supply house but I believe it could be done according to the over all cost of a complete guitar build with necks and bridges being supplied by someone with the proper set up.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2020 9:57:39