A quick primer on Double top soundboards

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

hannabach

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 11 2008

A quick primer on Double top soundboards

Here is a link to some limited information on building the double top soundboard.

https://blog.guitarfromspain.com/2013/06/02/what-is-a-double-top-guitar/

Other methods of course exist.

There seems to be an ongoing quest amongst certain builders to find the right material and system to build the ultimate cannon...

Any additional information would be greatly appreciated.

James

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2019 1:29:32

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to hannabach)

Well, it’s a whole field of the modern lutherie and obviously it’s not easy to summarise it here.
The main goal is the attempt to reduce mass and add strength to the top with consistency.
The top is by far the main element of a guitar and the wood quality is the main variable for consistency.
A composite top is a top plate made by gluing different layers of wood/composite materials, usually at the centre of the sandwich.
Mathias Dammann experimented first with a sandwich made with 2 layers of cedar, 0.6 mm thick, and in between a layer made with many transverse cedar sticks 6 mm distant to each other.
Later on, with the help of Gernot Wagner, he experimented with a core made of a synthetic honeycomb sheet called nomex. Barrueco and Russell have been playing the latter kind of Dammann for many years now and many people copied that model.
Recently Dammann passed to a balsa core as many other luthiers.
In the meantime a luthier (Luis Feu de Mezquita) shared some pictures of an early Dammann he had restored: that guitar showed a nomex patch glued just in the lower bout area and so many people started routing the top and filling the gap with nomex or balsa just in that area.
As said Balsa became a good alternative to nomex.
The balsa core tends to sound as powerful but more natural than nomex.
People like Antonius Muller set the path here by gluing sticks of balsa at 45 degrees between the two layers of cedar.
On the tube there is a video of Michael Thames explaining his process.

Other people instead decided to work the outside wood skin with a cnc machine, making hundreds of small holes (Robert Ruck, Frederick Holtier, Garret Lee) avoiding balsa and nomex. I myself tried an early Holtier 20 years ago and was impressed on how loud it was compared to a traditional guitar.
Btw Gareth Lee has a very complete infos on his website. Better to take a look there.
I’m aware of very few flamenco double top guitars (Canin with balsa and John Shelton with nomex) but never tried one. It should work quite well though.
To be clear, I don't think a double top guitar is in itself better than a traditional guitar; it's usually louder.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2019 9:47:08

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

To be clear, I don't think a double top guitar is in itself better than a traditional guitar; it's usually louder.

It's true that the progression of double tops is gaining favor in the market and perhaps it will gain priority in the future, but I still have concern about the tops being very thin.

Traditional thought has always been to have a top gain in age to display its character and personal stamp; something that must have age as a factor in the guitar's growth as a valued commodity.

A few years ago, I corresponded with Amalia Ramirez to put her in touch with Gernot Wagner about double top designs. My understanding is that she still uses this system but with caution not to replace her main first class traditional models.

Has anyone heard from her about this experiment?

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2019 13:10:35

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to hannabach)

The Ramirez auditorio series has a nomex patch underneath the lower bout. It's not a full layered double top yet as the nomex is just glued in 2 pockets routed in the lower bout area.
There is a variant of the auditorio series called auditorio trio, with top, sides and back layered with nomex.
I think these are definitely first class guitars but my impression is that Ramirez makes just few of these overall and probably their single top model is still the more requested.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2019 17:17:13

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to Echi)

The great classical guitarist Xuefei Yang played here in Austin a few weeks ago, on a Smallman sandwich top guitar.

Friends in the audience who pay little attention to details of guitar construction, or indeed to the identity of makers, commented on the "sharper" sound of her guitar.

What impressed me was that she consistently achieved tone qualities I had never heard before. She has played Smallman sandwich top guitars since she was a student in China. John Wiliams, on tour there, heard her play, and gave her his Smallman.

To me Williams's playing on his Smallman sounds somewhat different from his Fleta, but not completely out of the ballpark, like Yang sounded on hers. I enjoyed Yang's sound. I felt it was employed to valid musical effect.

But I don't think I will be looking for a sandwich top instrument for myself.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2019 20:23:49

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to hannabach)

I more often than not find the tone in most doubletops/nomex etc. to be a bit fatiguing after a while and just very modern almost steel string sounding sometimes. It's just a bit too overboard at times. They just don't have the same "soul", timbre as a traditional build and you lose some of what makes a nylon string guitar special in the overall feel and ambience. Again not all of them are always this way. There are some who who can find that in between super modern and traditional that I've heard in the classical realm. They are indeed more often louder but again to my ears at a slight cost of tone IMO. This is why there are choices though as players prefer different things and I can understand why a true concert artist might choose one for unamplified playing in a hall.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2019 21:29:22

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to hannabach)

Let me say that Smallman is known for his lattice bracing guitar, which, while very modern, are quite different from the double top guitars made Dammann.
Smallman started in the 80ies and now makes use of a 0.6 mm cedar top strengthened with a lattice bracing made of balsa and carbon fibre. Such a thin top (coupled with a very rigid back and sides) makes the guitar sound very peculiar: someone defined the sound as extremelynasal and sharp.
Viceversa the Dammann double top Guitar have a very light bracing (saw the top is stronger and lighter) and sound much traditional and very bassy, being the body air resonance tuned down to E.
In the case of many double top it's even hard to tell the difference with a traditional top.
You may listen the recordings of Russel or Barrueco for a reference.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2019 22:57:38

etta

Posts: 341
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to hannabach)

I have two G. Canin double tops with nomex, a blanca and a Brazilian negra. To my ears they sound traditional but with quicker response, greater volume and projection. The blanca sounds like a blanca; the negra sounds like a negra and both on steroids. I play some with a local classical guitar group. All the members have really nice guitars, but they always seemed astonished at the sounds from the two flamencos. I also have a very early Canin cedar top Brazilian and an early cedar top blanca, also with fine projection and volume. Maybe it is the builder not the material, I cannot say.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2019 18:01:59

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi
Let me say that Smallman is known for his lattice bracing guitar, which, while very modern, are quite different from the double top guitars made Dammann.

I should have pointed this out in my previous post.

The only concert artist who comes to mind, whom I have heard in person playing a sandwich top instrument, was Jason Vieaux. He played a Gernot Wagner. The piece I remember most vividly was Benjamin Britten's "Nocturnal."

For those not familiar with it, the piece is a set of variations on "Come Heavy Sleep" by John Dowland, the great composer and lute player of the late 16th-early 17th centuries. Britten wrote the piece for Julian Bream.

The form of the piece is a little unusual. Instead of first stating the theme, then folllowing it with variations, instead the variations come first. They begin softly, in somewhat halting rhythm, and 20th century harmony. The variations increase in complexity and, if I may say so, 20th century angst. At the end Dowland's great song emerges with simplicity, serene repose, and deep melancholy. It often brings me nearly to tears.

Vieaux's performance was a masterpiece, on as high a level as Bream's. The main characteristic of the guitar which I remember was its dynamic range. There are no blazing fortissimos in Britten's piece, but I had never heard so many audible gradations between pianissimo and forte. The use of these gradations in clarifying counterpoint fascinated me.

I was sitting on the front row, maybe 15 feet from Vieaux. At a gathering after the concert I said to him that his was the only peformance of the piece I had ever heard that was as great as Bream's.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2019 7:58:44

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

There is a variant of the auditorio series called auditorio trio, with top, sides and back layered with nomex.
I think these are definitely first class guitars but my impression is that Ramirez makes just few of these overall and probably their single top model is still the more requested.

Perhaps, rightly so since her production models have arrived through generations of hard work and hair pulling, to say the least.

My own theory, if I'm permitted to say, arrives from thoughts about the new methods of allowing more air/sound to escape from the top, therefore providing a more immediate contact with the players' hearing senses.

Although this might give some advantage to the player in audio feed back, what does it do for audience appreciation?

I've always thought that a more immediate release of sound may work against the amalgamation of tone to homogenize its delivery inside the box for tonal appreciation. So I've tried to create a basic traditional moment for the tonal quality by working with certain vibrations of the box and slight tonal adjustments.

Characteristics of tone seem to travel quite well, as far as projection is required, as tone is heard as a constant with its musical output, perhaps more than just louder sound. Also, I've found that the middle register voicing does have a tendency to project well when correctly tuned.

But whatever it may be, I applaud the innovators of more modern trends, as they are the salt of searching for a better way.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2019 15:28:12

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to etta)

quote:

I also have a very early Canin cedar top Brazilian and an early cedar top blanca, also with fine projection and volume. Maybe it is the builder not the material, I cannot say.

The builder will always be recognized as the master of any material and design he chooses to work with.

And there is a market for all price ranges, to be sure.

I think the trick is to gain the market share with quality at an affordable price.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2019 16:06:28

aaron peacock

Posts: 141
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: A quick primer on Double top sou... (in reply to hannabach)

An interesting video by a guy using a CNC cutter to route an intricate matrix in balsa wood that then gets inserted into routed recesses in the actual top.

This looks superior to the Nomex technique, to my untrained eyes lol, albeit requiring a CNC...