RE: Falseta vs Llamada

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devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

All of that above differs from writing pop songs as the Beatles example shows where you have a blank canvas to choose rhythm, melody length, harmony and chords etc there is nothing to follow or parameters to go outside of so the concept of “form” doesn’t apply.

After reading about music composition I came to the following conclusion.

All types of music including songs in popular music have a form which can be modelled. So the concept of form is nothing more than a model. It decribes the structure of a song/composition.
We know pop/rock songs have the following structure
Intro Verse1 Pre-chorus Chorus Verse2 Chorus Bridge Chorus Outro.

As for the classical music genres, I read they have more complex forms. The most complex form is sonata-allegro form.
A model representing this form looks as follows:
Intro - Exposition - Development - Recapitulation - Coda or Intro.

1st theme of exposition resolves to the dominant. Here you can modulate to relative minor or major keys and 2nd theme starts. Closing theme of exposition ends with the tonic.
In the development section there are lots of harmonically unstable themes. They create tensions resolving to the tonic which is the beginning of the recapitulation section.
Coda/outro is similar to intro/outro of pop songs. It's very stable and simple and follows the usual progressions like V-I.

Any music has a form. Pop/rock songs have simpler forms whereas classical music genres have more complex one.
Flamenco forms can be complex but I guess they're simple when accompanying. On the other hand flamenco compositions can be as complex as sonata allegro form.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2020 11:57:30

devilhand

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

Today I've read a few pages from the book The Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer after many years. This book was very helpful when I started playing guitar. But the funny thing is the last sentence I marked. Except for this the rest was spot-on. This last sentence can't be true. Am I right? What do you guys think? Prove me wrong.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2020 18:33:36

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

Everything stated is very general and gets at Flamenco at a superficial level.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2020 18:41:51

devilhand

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

I thought he might be wrong about his last sentence. As far as I know, no one specializes in only one of palos, no matter how complex the rhythmic patterns.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2020 12:19:21

Piwin

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2020 13:02:13

devilhand

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

that's probably different than what he meant

Now it says "no matter how complex the rhythmic patterns"

quote:

but it's not all that unusual to associate a particular artist with a palo, to a certain extent.

Moraito or Tomatito (I can't remember which one) is associated with his groovy Bulerias. Other than that there's no one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2020 14:21:53

Piwin

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2020 14:43:17

Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

I thought he might be wrong about his last sentence. As far as I know, no one specializes in only one of palos, no matter how complex the rhythmic patterns.

Singers might specialize or focus on palos but guitarists need to know every palo just in case. What that means is being able to accompany well does not mean to know equal amounts of falsetas for every palo. In fact zero falsetas are required for any palo when accompanying. To be a “complete cantaor or tocaor” the person needs to have just enough of everything. In the 1980s tomatito was thought to be the next gen champ of a special guitar contest with judges like paco de lucia and Manolo sanlucar. He excelled in every department until they asked him to play Guajiras, which he had no original falsetas of, and it cost him the prize. The winner was Manolo Franco.

I suspect the highlighted sentence refers to guitarists that compose falsetas.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2020 15:38:49

devilhand

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

Other than that there's no one

ok.

I expected more than ok from you Piwin.

quote:

The winner was Manolo Franco.

Which contest was it? Do they organize the same contest today?

quote:

I suspect the highlighted sentence refers to guitarists that compose falsetas.

I wonder which guitarist is the falseta composition maestro for what palo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2020 17:29:41

Piwin

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2020 17:45:19

devilhand

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

I expected more than ok from you Piwin

Love it! Exceeded my expectation by far.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2020 18:47:43

devilhand

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Piwin post was great nothing to add except yes temple and ayeo are interchangeable terms, the other most often used is “salida”.

First I thought tiriti tran tran was temple or salida in Alegria. But I just came to know that it's called Lalias according to Bernard Leblon. Does anyone know Lalias in other palos?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2020 20:19:57

Ricardo

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Piwin post was great nothing to add except yes temple and ayeo are interchangeable terms, the other most often used is “salida”.

First I thought tiriti tran tran was temple or salida in Alegria. But I just came to know that it's called Lalias according to Bernard Leblon. Does anyone know Lalias in other palos?

Not sure what you are talking about, but tiri tran tran is the cantiñas melody that corresponds to the melody that has lyrics “con La luz del Cigarro, yo vi molino...” etc. This cantinas melody is often (but not always) attached to the ending of one of the Alegrias melodies. It is therefore often called a “colatilla” or little tail, meaning it is a short ending that may or may not be used in combo with Alegrias or on it’s own. The story I heard was that some cantaor was singing Alegrias and forgot the lyrics to the colatilla and sang tiri tiri tran tran instead. After the joke wore off some cantaors decided to do it deliberately as a warm up or “temple” as you said. “Salida” would be a term used to describe someone singing that OR ANYTHING ELSE, at the beginning of the dance when the dancer comes out, before she starts stomping. It is often this colatilla but it can be one with actual lyrics or a free style song, lots of options are used as a “salida”.

When the dancer wants a colatilla sung after the silencio section of the dance, it is often called “Castellana”, presumably because the original cantinas sung here used that word in the lyrics, but I have never heard it. It would be dumb to sing tiri tiri tran tran here literally but it’s often the same melody used here.

There are other cantinas melodies that function as “colatillas” also.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2020 22:55:07

JasonM

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From: Baltimore

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

That’s a great explanation Ricardo!

Funny, in this Flamenco Explained video, he literally calls it the TiritiTran. But it’s kind of like the Salida in this case right?

https://youtu.be/iZ97F9XuWGA

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2020 2:31:55

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to JasonM)

Yep!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2020 6:22:48

mark indigo

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

Funny, in this Flamenco Explained video, he literally calls it the TiritiTran. But it’s kind of like the Salida in this case right?

https://youtu.be/iZ97F9XuWGA

I am curious in this video they go direct from the Castellana to the Escobilla without any kind of cierre - I looked at a few other videos of Alegrias to try to find typical castellana but have seen a few do this the same. I was expecting a sort of 2 compas llamada/cierre/desplante before starting the escobilla. Is this the latest trend, or is the close I am expecting that I thought was the "traditional" way to do it not so standard? I have also accompanied where the choreo goes from silencio to escobilla without castellana, so i know there are different ways to do it, but interested in standard/tipico/traditional forms as well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2020 13:26:59

Ricardo

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

I was expecting a sort of 2 compas llamada/cierre/desplante before starting the escobilla. Is this the latest trend, or is the close I am expecting that I thought was the "traditional" way to do it not so standard?

Often there might be a supida, after which things need to come down tempo wise or Castellana done entirely at buleria de cadiz tempo. Many escobillas start at solea tempo as well. Both of those common cases require a hard stop so the new tempo can be set by the dancers foot. In the above video case the dancer starts the escobilla at the same tempo Castellana was already doing so no need to change tempo and no stop. Some dancers will stop anyway to be polite, and great dancers always stop because they don’t yet know which escobilla they want to do cuz they have several in the bag and like to improvise.

It won’t be a trend until many people start doing the exact same thing. I am still personally fighting the trend of elastic box solea myself. Been forced to do it twice for two cantaores and see it done too much already.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2020 14:28:55

devilhand

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The story I heard was that some cantaor was singing Alegrias and forgot the lyrics to the colatilla and sang tiri tiri tran tran instead. After the joke wore off some cantaors decided to do it deliberately as a warm up or “temple” as you said.

The story can be true. But Tangos seem to have Lalias too. What do you guys think?

At 0:30 and at 0:43-1:04 again

2:45

1:40

3:46

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2020 15:01:59

Morante

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Not sure what you are talking about, but tiri tran tran is the cantiñas melody that corresponds to the melody that has lyrics “con La luz del Cigarro, yo vi molino...” etc. This cantinas melody is often (but not always) attached to the ending of one of the Alegrias melodies.

The version gaditano is that it comes from the espectáculo Calles de Cádiz, organized by Concha Piquer. Ignacio Espleta, who was acting the part of the zapatero, spent a noche de juerga and arrived with a hangover. When came his turn to sing por alegrías, not remembering the letras, he sang Tiri ti tran, while he was thinking!

In Cádiz it is a salida. When it is used as a coletilla, usually in cante para bailar, it is yet another example of how el baile has been deforming el cante

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2020 16:10:57

mark indigo

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Often there might be a supida, after which things need to come down tempo wise or Castellana done entirely at buleria de cadiz tempo. Many escobillas start at solea tempo as well. Both of those common cases require a hard stop so the new tempo can be set by the dancers foot.

yep, hard stop after castellana is what I expect to happen, followed by escobilla starting slow. I have also accompanied escobilla starting slow after silencio with no castellana.

I hadn't seen escobilla starting right after castellana at same tempo without stop before. I was looking for examples on youtube for a dancer who has a choreo from a teacher without castellana and is trying to put one in. She has music from solo compas disc where there are two compas after cante with stop before escobilla. she is just doing letra marcaje until the stop, so it's more of a fizzle out! Looking on youtube I found mostly castellana going to escobilla at same tempo without stop and struggled to find the hard stop i am familiar with. Did find one basic class vid with exact music she is using and 2 compas llamada/cierre. Also some classic old b/w film.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2020 20:59:56

devilhand

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

The story I heard was that some cantaor was singing Alegrias and forgot the lyrics to the colatilla and sang tiri tiri tran tran instead. After the joke wore off some cantaors decided to do it deliberately as a warm up or “temple” as you said.

The story can be true. But Tangos seem to have Lalias too. What do you guys think?

At 0:30 and at 0:43-1:04 again

2:45

1:40

3:46

Still no comments on my post?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2020 18:41:53

Ricardo

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

Nobody understands what you are talking about. Unless you mean the temples or warm up vocalizations are Arabic based? If that is the case, yes this is well known and obvious.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2020 23:27:19

devilhand

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Nobody understands what you are talking about. Unless you mean the temples or warm up vocalizations are Arabic based? If that is the case, yes this is well known and obvious.

A book says Lalias have a similar function as temple. Can be heard in cante chico such as Alegrias, Tangos or Bulerias. Therefore less expressive than quejio. Can anyone confirm this?
It's tiriti tran tran in Alegrias. In Tango I guess it must be leyley ley particularly in Paquera de Jerez video. A copla in Tango can end with leley ley as well.

Not Arabic based. One can hear it in gypsy music. As I mentioned the original source of this information comes from Bernard Leblon who wrote a book about flamenco. I don't own his book. So haven't read it yet. I got this information from another book.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2020 19:41:46

tf10music

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Not Arabic based. One can hear it in gypsy music. As I mentioned the original source of this information comes from Bernard Leblon who wrote a book about flamenco. I don't own his book. So haven't read it yet. I got this information from another book.

I've read the book. He includes a vague glossary of terms at the back and that's where you're getting this stuff from. Overall, it's a trustworthy book -- and it's not really about performance practice in flamenco at all, honestly. It's more focused on its historical context. In any case, while it's a solid book overall, that glossary is really suspect -- much too normative, feels like an over-categorization.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2020 0:15:38

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Not Arabic based.

She even says “habibi” while she is doing it. Never heard a flamenco artist say “lalias”, but if they function as temple then I don’t get what your problem is about?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2020 2:10:30