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devilhand

 

Posts: 140
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

Falseta vs Llamada 

I just came across the word llamada when reading a first few pages of Duende flamenco of Claude Worms.

What is the difference between llamada and falseta? Llamada has something to do with baile accompaniment. Falseta is used for cante accompaniment. Am I right?

The book says llamada is a short theme. It gives more room for improvisation whereas falseta is more or less pre-determined melodical lines. That means one can't improvise falseta during accompaniment, let alone compose. So I have to thank you guys again, especially Mr Marlow, who has pointed out that in Which scale thread.

Could you guys show me the difference between the two using audio or youtube?

Much appreciated!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2019 17:05:11
 
orsonw

Posts: 1415
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

Try search on the foro:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/searchpro.asp?topicreply=both&message=both&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=10&language=single&phrase=Llamada+


Also try this for a beginning introduction to accompaniment (baile), it explains the structure of an alegrias with audio and tab examples.
Like everything else in flamenco there are variations but if you start by learning this you'll have some reference.

https://ravennaflamenco.com/tab/alegria-accompaniment/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2019 17:23:41
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2706
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

What is the difference between llamada and falseta? Llamada is something to do with baile accompaniment. Falseta is used for cante accompaniment. Am I right?


a llamada is literally a call.

the guitar plays a llamada to call the singer when accompanying cante.

a dancer does a llamada to call the singer, and the guitar accompanies the dancer calling the singer. so in accompanying the baile the guitar accompanies the dancer to call the singer.

a guitarist can punctuate their solo between falsetas with llamadas.

guitar falsetas give the singer a break between letras.

a dancer will dance to a falseta.

a guitarist will string together falsetas to make a solo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2019 18:11:22
 
Piwin

Posts: 2434
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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I just came across the word llamada when reading a first few pages of Duende flamenco of Claude Worms


Well, I sure am glad you didn't run into it 3 weeks ago when I wrote a full outline of an Alegrias choreography for you, which featured the word "llamada" 4 times...

I'm also glad that you didn't take those all but 5 minutes it would have taken to find an answer to this question on Google, Youtube, or even directly on this forum by using the search function...

Anyway, somebody else can "do the primo" now if they feel so inclined.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2019 18:22:44
 
JasonM

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Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin

Could it be that Devilhand is really THE Professor?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2019 4:23:33
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to orsonw

quote:

Also try this for a beginning introduction to accompaniment (baile), it explains the structure of an alegrias with audio and tab examples.
Like everything else in flamenco there are variations but if you start by learning this you'll have some reference.

https://ravennaflamenco.com/tab/alegria-accompaniment/


Thnx for the link. Is it me or is it difficult distinguish temple ,llamada, falseta, copla from each other in Alegria Accompaniment? The player knows where he is in compas and what he plays when. As a listener, I can't tell the difference.

quote:

Well, I sure am glad you didn't run into it 3 weeks ago when I wrote a full outline of an Alegrias choreography for you, which featured the word "llamada" 4 times...

I'm also glad that you didn't take those all but 5 minutes it would have taken to find an answer to this question on Google, Youtube, or even directly on this forum by using the search function...


As a beginner, I couldn't do anything with the your post in Structure of Palo thread. Here I asked what llamada is and how it differs from other sections of palo, in particular from falseta.

I could have used the search function but there's no audio or youtube explanation, mostly a definition of llamada or other sections of palo with weird names. Explaining it in words doesn't help me. Some youtube videos in older threads are not available anymore. That's why I asked for audio or youtube.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2019 13:14:46
 
JasonM

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

Here is an example of the sections Pwin was talking about.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2019 15:23:14
 
Piwin

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

No worries. I was just in a foul mood. Sorry.
I do think this is honestly not difficult to find though...

quote:

Is it me or is it difficult distinguish temple ,llamada, falseta, copla from each other in Alegria Accompaniment?


That's because they just give you the guitar part and the guitar part isn't necessarily all that different for some of those elements. But also, chunks of their description are wrong IMO, or maybe there are different ways of interpreting some of these terms and I just don't know about it?

For instance, he writes: "The temple is traditionally the cante (singing) intro, usually a melodic string of nonsense syllables, most commonly “Tirititran tran tran"."
That to me is wrong. "Tirititran" is an "ayeo". Every palo has its own characteristic "ayeos" that are most often sung as an introduction. Aye aye, tirititran, etc. They don't have any semantic meaning, they're just sets of syllables that are sung 99% of the time at the beginning of a song. As you go on listening to more and more cante, you'll come to notice which ayeos are associated with which palos.

The "temple" to me is just when the singer sings a note or two to make sure he's in tune with the guitar. The singer can use the same syllables as the ayeo for the temple, but in the temple he's just making sure he's in tune. If he's already singing in earnest, then it's not a temple.

From 00:42 to 00:48, that's a temple.


From 00:30 to 00:40, that's an ayeo (tirititran) but not a temple. He's already in tune with the guitar, he knows where he's at, so no need for a temple.


Here's one that has both, a temple to get in tune followed by an ayeo sung in earnest (tirititran again).


Another example with both, but now in solea:

For me the temple is just what you hear from 00:25 to 00:28. He's tuning in to the guitar. The big ayeo ("ay" in this case) that follows (00:28 to 00:45) to me is not a temple.

So I think he's wrong about that, but who knows, maybe people are using "temple" and "ayeo" interchangeably? Looking around I'm seeing various sources where they do seem to consider the "temple" as the whole thing. That's not what I was taught but who knows. Maybe others will weigh in. Anyway, whichever definition of "temple" you use, from the videos above I think you can see what it is. Note that you can go from the temple/ayeo straight into a copla like in the video of Macanita, or you can leave a short pause with only the guitar playing.

Next, there's no sense in which I would recognize his "falseta" as a falseta at all. It just chords... Or if we want to call that a falseta, I'd at least say that he's not making things easy for learners by choosing something that blurs the line between falseta and just chord accompaniment... The falseta is an "independent" composition (or improvisation if you're that good), that usually sticks out from the rest of the accompaniment because it has a clear melodic line to it. So dunno what to make of that video. Maybe he was showing something you could do to accompany a falseta if there were two guitars involved?

On the Rancapino Chico video, the first 20 seconds or so are a falseta. Clear melodic line, not chord accompaniment. On the two other alegrias videos (Macanita and José Mercé), one of them starts with a falseta and the other one doesn't. I think you'll hear it clearly. There are a number of falsetas in these videos I've posted. If you want you could try posting time stamps to where you think they are to see if you've got it down or not.

Next thing is copla. Basically people use "copla", "letra" and "tercio" interchangeably (not always but anyway) and I guess the closest translation would be a "verse". Take that last video of Juan Talega, the first tercio/copla/whatever ^^goes from 1:00 to 1:50. If you were to write down the words, it would look like this:

¿A quién le contaré yo (A)
las fatiguillitas que estoy pasando? (B)
se las voy a contar a la tierra (C)
cuando me estén enterrando (D)

(A bad translation of which would be something like: "To whom will I tell / all my sorrows? / I'll tell them to the earth / when they bury me.")
But what he's actually singing is more like this:

¿A quién le contaré yo (A)
las fatiguillitas que estoy pasando? (B)
las fatiguillitas que estoy pasando (B)
las fatiguillitas que estoy pasando (B)
se las voy a contar a la tierra (C)
cuando me estén enterrando (D)
se las voy a contar a la tierra (C)
cuando me estén enterrando (D)

Then there's a short falseta immediately after. If you go on Norman's site (canteytoque), you'll find this pattern very easily. If you give a letter to each line of the original verse (ABCD), then here the pattern he's singing is AB-BB-CD-CD, which Norman identifies as one of the two major patterns of "cantes de inicio" which are the coplas/tercios you would start a solea with (see: http://canteytoque.es/soleares.htm ).

Here's another example of the exact same letra with a different singer and accompanist (1:25 to 2:30):


As far as accompaniment goes, the most obvious one to distinguish is "falseta", since it's the only one where you're not just playing rhythmic accompaniment. The temple you don't have to worry about. The singer can do it while you're finishing up an introductory falseta or while you're playing basic compas. He's tuning into you, not the other way around. You only have to worry about it if you hear he's messed it up and he's not in the same key as you, because then, unless you're a pro, you're ****ed ^^ because it would then be up to you to figure out what key he's actually singing in now and try to match it on the spot. The "ayeo" in alegrias is usually played just alternating V7 and I (usually B7-E or G7-C depending on the key you're in) and that's what you'll hear in the examples above. In solea, the ayeo is usually played by alternating between II and I (F-E or Bb-A depending on the key). You can do some variations of course (in the El Cigala video, you'll hear him briefly go up to G) but those are the basic chords. The tercio/copla will have its own chord patterns. For solea, back to Norman's site, he explains: "Regarding the accompaniment, most styles start with melodies that involve the chords II-I (F-E por arriba) or the chords I7-IVm (E7-Am). In a few styles, the implied chords are III-II (G-F), VI7-II (C7-F) or V7-I (B7-E). In nearly all styles, the conclusion (cambio) is III-VI-II-I (G-C-F-E)."

As for "llamada" here too we're talking about rhythmic accompaniment. It just refers to certain rhythmic patterns a dancer will do to signal he's about to end a section, and it's up to the guitarist to try and match those patterns. So differentiating it from a falseta isn't hard. What you play during a llamada is rhythmic accompaniment. There's no melodic component like there would be in a falseta. If C. Worms really wrote that a llamada is a kind of falseta, then dunno, maybe he was high when he wrote that? On the first video that Jason posted, I would probably have a more narrow definition of what the llamada is than they do. You'll notice that in each section labelled "llamada", at some point the dancer very clearly marks beats 1, 2 and 3. Of course that's not the only rhythmic pattern for a llamada, but it's one of the very basic ones. If you see the dancer marking those 3 beats very clearly, often with a short breather of a few beats after, then there's a good chance it's a llamada and that you're about to change section. Personally I just use llamada to refer to dance or to refer to those same rhythmic patterns I would play on the guitar while accompanying dance. That said, many extend the meaning to any kind of signal of a section change.

Edit: on that temple vs ayeo thing, I just checked Faustino Nunez's site (flamencopolis) and he seems to use the term the same way I do. It's in Spanish but I'll just put it up here for anyone who's interested. "Temple: sección del cante que sirve, generalmente, para que el cantaor coja el tono de la guitarra. Es un elemento característico de la estética musical flamenca y forma parte de la estructura formal de muchos cantes, diferenciándose del ayeo, esto es, después de la introducción de la guitarra suele haber un temple de la voz y, una vez cogido el tono, se realiza el ayeo como fórmula de salida del cante."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2019 17:24:17
 
RobF

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin

Excellent posts, Piwin and Jason. Thanks :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2019 21:33:07
 
orsonw

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From: London

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin

Thank you for your detailed and informative post Piwin. I think you are correct regarding temple.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 8:21:52
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

The book says llamada is some kind of falseta but it gives more room for improvisation whereas falseta is more or less pre-determined melodical lines.


I would say the reason he says llamadas have "more room for improvisation" is because llamadas are short, more or less the same, and occur in any and every song/dance, so every guitarist develops a variety of ways to play essentially the same simple thing, "improvising" slurred ornaments and/or rasjeos at will.

As you are looking at a guitar transcription book, here are two examples from solos from different eras that are basically the same, and would work (probably with some adaptation) for accompanying as well as solos:

here 1 compas llamada at 0:22 - 0:29


here compas llamada at 0:49 - 1:01 and again at 2:01 - 2:16


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 17:28:31
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin

Hey Piwin Thank you very much. Feels like it's already Xmas!
Gradually it becomes clearer.

Temple and ayeo sound kinda different to my ears. Temple is like eyee whereas ayeo is mostly ayeo in most palos except for Alegrias tiriti tran tran. Who's with me?

I read somewhere ayeo or eyee is very characteristic for any cante. They tried to solve the mystery behind it and asked where it might have come from.

quote:

Worms really wrote that a llamada is a kind of falseta, then dunno, maybe he was high when he wrote that?


Sorry for the confusion. He was correct. It was my mistake. I'm gonna correct it in my first post above.

He wrote that llamadas are short themes (maybe we have to know first in a musical context what a theme is). Llamadas are characteristic to each palo, based on compas and used as a bridge between falsetas and rasgueados, as well as between the singer and the guitarist. But I didn't understand the last part "...between the singer and the guitarist". Does anyone have an idea what he's trying to say there?

He also wrote that unlike the falsetas, the variations on llamadas are often improvised.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 17:39:06
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

"...between the singer and the guitarist". Does anyone have an idea what he's trying to say there?


from post above:

quote:

a llamada is literally a call.

the guitar plays a llamada to call the singer when accompanying cante.


So in this vid the guitarist plays a llamada to call the singer 0:40 - 0:44 and again at 2:40 - 2:44



and in this vid the guitar plays llamada at 0:26 - 0:33 and again at 3:24 - 3:30



No dancing!

my reference for these very typical phrases being called llamadas is Miguel Ángel Cortés.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 18:10:20
 
Piwin

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Temple and ayeo sound kinda different to my ears. Temple is like eyee whereas ayeo is mostly ayeo in most palos except for Alegrias tiriti tran tran. Who's with me?


If we use the definition I was using above, then the big difference you should notice is that with temple the singer is kind of easing in to the song, whereas the ayeo he's singing in earnest. Ay is the most common for cante jondo I think. But there's a large palette.

ilei lei? ile ile? Something like that lol then ay ay ay, then further on uy...


uy


ya-i, iya-i-ya dunno lol


leleleilaliloyoddlehihoouuu ^^


Anyway, it's a pretty diverse set.
As for llamada, I just use the term for dance, but if you're using it for the interaction between the guitarist and singer, then it's what mark indigo said.

As a sidenote, you'll notice as you continue to study that definitions in flamenco can be a real clusterfuck. Some of it is just that there are three different disciplines (cante, baile, toque) using the same words for their own purposes, and sometimes they don't exactly align. This afternoon I asked a singer friend about the whole temple/ayeo thing. He agreed with me that temple was just the part where you settle the voice. but he then told me that for him "ayeo" referred to the part of the song, so it's a structural component like intro/verse/chorus type of thing. He then said that in the ayeo you could either sing a quejio (ay, ui, etc.) or a tarabilla (tirititran, tiritiritiri, etc.). And there's no doubt in my mind that the next person I ask is going to tell me something entirely different...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 19:06:24
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin

quote:

definitions in flamenco can be a real clusterfuck.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 20:40:22
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to mark indigo

@mark indigo and piwin. Thanks to both of you.

My conclusion is llamada is any short phrase that is played just before the singer starts singing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 17:37:50
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2706
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

My conclusion is llamada is any short phrase that is played just before the singer starts singing.


It's not "any" sort of phrase, they are actually quite specific phrases, and any "improvisation" referred to by Worms is only in the details or ornaments of the phrase, or choice of which version of the specific phrase. They let the singer know that the guitar falseta has concluded and it's time for them to sing. The singer will recognise those specific phrases and take their cue.

In the baile, the dancers llamada is doing the same thing, calling the singer to sing after the entrada, falseta or escobilla, and the guitar's accompaniment to that is recognised (and can be used the same way in cante accompaniment or solo) as much as the dancers movements and footwork.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 11:29:59
 
Ricardo

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

My conclusion is llamada is any short phrase that is played just before the singer starts singing.


It's not "any" sort of phrase, they are actually quite specific phrases, and any "improvisation" referred to by Worms is only in the details or ornaments of the phrase, or choice of which version of the specific phrase. They let the singer know that the guitar falseta has concluded and it's time for them to sing. The singer will recognise those specific phrases and take their cue.

In the baile, the dancers llamada is doing the same thing, calling the singer to sing after the entrada, falseta or escobilla, and the guitar's accompaniment to that is recognised (and can be used the same way in cante accompaniment or solo) as much as the dancers movements and footwork.


Piwin post was great nothing to add except yes temple and ayeo are interchangeable terms, the other most often used is “salida”.

About improvise llamada.... I get what he means. I always improvise the llamada for dance in the sense that I can make up accents and rasgueado and my own rueda of chords however I want so long as we rematar together. The better I know the choreography the more adventurous I may get with my version of the llamada. The less I know the dancer the more conservative I will be with my chords and accents. I agree “any sort of phrase” is not correct, it’s always a rhythmic statement, even if it is not only strumming techniques used. Falsetas are typically set in stone, so that’s what Worms probably meant. I must admit that those of us who don’t like editing our nice perfect falsetas to better fit a choreography more often opt to improvise or at least compose on the fly, a falseta that fits the dance structure perfectly. I call those “BS program falsetas” lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 13:59:50
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

It's not "any" sort of phrase, they are actually quite specific phrases, and any "improvisation" referred to by Worms is only in the details or ornaments of the phrase, or choice of which version of the specific phrase. They let the singer know that the guitar falseta has concluded and it's time for them to sing. The singer will recognise those specific phrases and take their cue.

In the baile, the dancers llamada is doing the same thing, calling the singer to sing after the entrada, falseta or escobilla, and the guitar's accompaniment to that is recognised (and can be used the same way in cante accompaniment or solo) as much as the dancers movements and footwork.

Thanks mark indigo. That clarifies a lot.

quote:

I always improvise the llamada for dance in the sense that I can make up accents and rasgueado and my own rueda of chords however I want so long as we rematar together.

I wonder how many beats do llamadas normally last in 12 beat compas such as Solea or in 4/4 time palos like Tango.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 17:45:11
 
orsonw

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From: London

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I wonder how many beats do llamadas normally last in 12 beat compas such as Solea or in 4/4 time palos like Tango.


at least one compas
For baile llamada cante often 2 compas, can be more e.g. 4
For guitar llamada cante more often 1, or 2 compas

Here at 0.26 guitar 'calls'=llamada for cante
at 3.35 baile/guitar 'calls'=llamada for cante

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2019 8:16:41
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to orsonw

quote:

at least one compas
For baile llamada cante often 2 compas, can be more e.g. 4
For guitar llamada cante more often 1, or 2 compas

Here at 0.26 guitar 'calls'=llamada for cante
at 3.35 baile/guitar 'calls'=llamada for cante

Thnks orsonw

If I tapped my foot correctly, from 0:26 to 0:30, it's exactly 1 compas (12 beats).
It ends actually on beat 9. Beat 10 is muted. Donwstroke on 11. 12 is muted again just before singer starts singing at 0:30.
I thought in 12 beat compas, 10 is the beat where the guitar playing ends. Maybe my timing is 1 beat earlier.

What is played from 0:00 to 0:26? Falseta?

Llamada starting from 3:35 does last 2 compas. Cante starts on beat 3 or 4 of the 3rd compas at 3:44.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2019 11:49:33
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

If I tapped my foot correctly, from 0:26 to 0:30, it's exactly 1 compas (12 beats).
It ends actually on beat 9. Beat 10 is muted.


No it’s ten your count is off.

Here I am improvising llamadas on stage for a set choreography I am not familiar with.
One compas llamada kick off intro cante, then a sped up buleria type llamada :22 it’s three compases then after the letra one compas llamada at 1:19. I played a single compas and realized I needed a falseta... I play one that is set and just pray it fits... it was short so I attached a second one that I had to cut short and do a super long llamada 5 compases long at 2:01(good example of having to improvise the rhythms to keep it interesting if you don’t know when they will end), second letra with a respiro at 2:27, basically a one compas llamada as well, after letra is a build up step ie the speed up into bulerias tempo and maintain it. I missed the llamada at 3:48, or rather I caught the end of it, which signaled a tempo jump up even faster... final one compas llamada at 4:00 and video cuts off.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2019 18:08:39
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Here I am improvising llamadas on stage for a set choreography I am not familiar with.

Nice video. Dancers seem to anticipate every beat and adjust their movements to that.

Which palo is that? What I noticed is llamadas tend to end on beat 10. Right?
Because both llamadas starting from 0:22 and 2:01 end on 10 leaving last 2 beats muted.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2019 12:47:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11363
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

The dancers when in a group can’t improvise so it is a set choreography well rehearsed. It was not rehearsed with ME however lol.

It’s Alegrias.

Stop on 10. The respiro I hit 9&, down up. Any llamada can do that too. Again when improvising count ten is the safest but it’s not wrong to anticipate the ten by stopping hard on 9 or 9& etc if you know it in advance.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2019 16:13:22
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 140
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The dancers when in a group can’t improvise so it is a set choreography well rehearsed. It was not rehearsed with ME however lol.

That means the guitar accompaniment was spot on.

Btw, what guitar are you playing there? Sounds as if it were amplified or something. A powerful sound if you think it was an open air stage.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 10 2019 12:04:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11363
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

The dancers when in a group can’t improvise so it is a set choreography well rehearsed. It was not rehearsed with ME however lol.

That means the guitar accompaniment was spot on.

Btw, what guitar are you playing there? Sounds as if it were amplified or something. A powerful sound if you think it was an open air stage.


It’s 1997 Conde Hermanos A26. It’s being miked of course but it’s not balanced to the singers, the falseta is lost and I’m playing hard as hell. I hate festivals.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 10 2019 21:55:48
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 140
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Again when improvising count ten is the safest but it’s not wrong to anticipate the ten by stopping hard on 9 or 9& etc if you know it in advance.

As far as I can remember the song Yesterday by Beatles ends on offbeat 2&, which is not unusual for a pop/rock song in 4/4 time.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2020 17:57:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11363
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Again when improvising count ten is the safest but it’s not wrong to anticipate the ten by stopping hard on 9 or 9& etc if you know it in advance.

As far as I can remember the song Yesterday by Beatles ends on offbeat 2&, which is not unusual for a pop/rock song in 4/4 time.


That’s a “song” not a “song FORM”, which is an important distinction.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2020 18:57:39
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 140
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

That’s a “song” not a “song FORM”, which is an important distinction.

Thanks for pointing this out. Could you please shed some light on the distinction between the two?

I know that palos are musical forms. But it gets confusing.
One source says cante jondo is one of the 3 forms of cante. Other sources say in classical music, forms are used to define movements with different tempos.
For example a fast movement is in sonata-allegro form. A slow movement can be in rondo form.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2020 15:32:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11363
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

That’s a “song” not a “song FORM”, which is an important distinction.

Thanks for pointing this out. Could you please shed some light on the distinction between the two?

I know that palos are musical forms. But it gets confusing.
One source says cante jondo is one of the 3 forms of cante. Other sources say in classical music, forms are used to define movements with different tempos.
For example a fast movement is in sonata-allegro form. A slow movement can be in rondo form.


Well I often use “blues” or “fugue” or “sonata allegro” as examples or song form similar to flamenco forms. But tempos are a small part of what might define a form. “Movements” in classical are usually the individual pieces in a “suite” or “Partita” where you have a group of “forms”. That suite concept would be like a flamenco Album where you know you will have at least several different types of forms depending on the artist. The details that might define ANY song form can’t be generalized across all genres. In the case of Fugue you have the subject and the answer in dominant, then again, which is exposition so you develop 4 separate voices....with blues you have the I IV I V IV I progression over 12 measures. Both of these forms don’t have a tempo dependence. An “allegro” is thought to be fast. In flamenco you have the compas and the structure of letras. Because compas is rhythm not just measures, tempo plays a more important role.

All of that above differs from writing pop songs as the Beatles example shows where you have a blank canvas to choose rhythm, melody length, harmony and chords etc there is nothing to follow or parameters to go outside of so the concept of “form” doesn’t apply. For example you pointed out the rhythmic conclusion which is only incidental as it follows the rhythm of saying the word “Yesterday” as three syllables starting on beat one. Yes....ter-day becomes 1 2&. There is no other reason the song needed to end there, in fact filling in the measure to next down beat would not hurt the song at all.

“Cante jondo” is a term used to generalize a group of cantes that is probably more to some aficionado’s tastes. Some guy likes sad or tragic theme lyrics so wants to apply a heavy “weight” to them and lump them together. Most flamenco artists don’t necessarily feel the lighter forms (alegria buleria fandango etc) are all supposed to be light hearted....on the contrary. The most obvious are shared lyrics of bulerias and solea. The exact same letra can be sung for both, so the depth and meaning can’t be any different. Slow tempos might superficially create “depth” however I would prefer to call that “drama” as opposed to true deep meaning.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2020 16:42:47
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