Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira and Philip John Lee who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





RE: Which scales?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   5 6 [7] 8 9    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Piwin

Posts: 2414
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

alternative universe


quote:

alternate universe


Let the language wars begin!


_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2019 22:31:07
 
kitarist

Posts: 689
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

This requires going into the physics I didn’t really want to.


Sorry, I was aware of all the physics stuff, and in more detail - Pythagorean tuning, just tuning, others, difference between tuning and temperament; regular vs. irregular. (also yes, of course same physics).

I haven't really found much on bottom-up justification of Ionian, except one author with a couple of papers; everyone seems to go the historical/practice route. Andrew Milne - "Tonal function in Harmonic Scales", 2005.

He has another paper called "X-system" which spends a lot of time on tuning and strict mathematical derivations, p-limit systems etc. but this one I refer to above is especially relevant for our purposes.

He actually works out everything from first principles and key assumptions. He shows diatonic and some other (rare in practice) scales satisfy requirements for tonal function in harmony, but unfortunately seems to gloss over the flamenco flavour of the diatonic and only discusses in more detail its major and minor flavours, despite the diagrams he shows just above the section on Functional Consistency on page 10.

He lays out very clearly types of melodic and harmonic prototypes, [semitone-based] alterations in harmonic context, all laid out following from the few core assumptions, rather than from practice or history. You will not be surprised that the Neapolitan alteration is one of the three available ones, the other being parallel and shift (parallel: 3rd differs by semitone, e.g. C <-> c triads; Neapolitan: root and 5th differ by semitone, e.g. C <-> c# triads; shift: root, 3rd and 5th differ by semitone: e.g. C <-> C# or c <-> c# triads). Also derives prototypical progressions again just based on the core assumptions.

Anyway, so I guess bottom line, Ionian is the only one which does not require tweaking to work as a tonality. It seems though minor (tweaked aeolian) and flamenco (tweaked phrygian with the majorified tonic triad) are equally qualified. And I would like to extend/apply Milne's framework to flamenco tonality and see how it fits.

Now here is one of the several nice graphical representations I came upon (not from that author). This one is about showing the intervals in all seven scales derived from the modes (so again I would title these scales, not modes), shown as a clock with 12 semitone slices. (or imagine it is just tuning so the statements "perfect 5th" etc. below are exactly correct).

If you stare at these for a while, you start seeing useful things.

Like: a straight line cutting the clock face in half represents a tritone. The 5 is perfect 4th; the 7 is a perfect 5th.

The Lochrian scale is the only one where the 5th degree is not a perfect 5th interval (no "7" ) but is instead a tritone.

The Lydian scale is the only one where the 4th degree is not a perfect 4th (no "5") but is instead a tritone. It is also a mirror image of the Lochrian across the 0-6 axis.

And Phrygian is a mirror image of the Ionian across the same axis.

This also provides easy visual proof why a 7-tone scale within a 12-slot system must contain at least one tritone interval - because there are only 6 spots in one half of the clock face to have 6 "spokes" that can avoid being directly opposite each other; the 7th spoke will always end up directly across one of the other 6, thus making a straight line through, i.e. a tritone interval.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 0:28:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11335
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Beni2

quote:

Within the flamenco phrygian tonal system [Nunez; Castro Buendia] that II-I in more modern flamenco can be fleshed out with "modes" of which d melodic minor [d-e-f-g-a-b-c#-d] or lydian augmented [f-g-a-b-c#-d-e-f] are common. Examples include Riqueni and Paco, but the point is that mode does not = key.


That’s exactly the point... reserve “mode” to refer to those scales but NOT for description of entire song form as Claude Worms had done in his book. Hence REPLACE the incorrect use of the term “mode” instead for “KEY”. Nobody was arguing that mode=key.

quote:

Also, there are a great number of things for which a four-semester theory track cannot account for. One is


Really?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 14:09:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11335
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

This also provides easy visual proof why a 7-tone scale within a 12-slot system must contain at least one tritone interval - because there are only 6 spots in one half of the clock face to have 6 "spokes" that can avoid being directly opposite each other; the 7th spoke will always end up directly across one of the other 6, thus making a straight line through, i.e. a tritone interval.


I guess it does make it easier for some to visualize that way? Please note as well if you alter any one of those tones by sharp or flat, you create a NEW additional tritone. Or if you alter one of the two existing tritones you MOVE it’s position relative to where it was.

So with that in mind you can reorder the pictures as per the damn circle of 5ths (how many times I’m going to say it? Hahaha you could run each diagram like a movie and watch it evolve) and Observe the tritone advancing by half step around the circle. Simply put it runs by half step counter clockwise to darken the mode or clockwise to brighten the mode. And therefore changing the key or modulation to a neighbor on the circle of 5ths is akin to brightening or darkening a single mode and viewed say on the fingerboard as simply shifting your physical tritone grip up or down a fret. This is how modes should be taught and organized... as per circle of 5ths, NOT by steps ascending.

Lydian-Ionian-mixolydian-dorian-Aeolian-phrygian-locrian

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 14:25:58
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2697
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

The Lochrian scale


only used in Scottish folk music

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 15:49:12
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2697
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Phrygian is a mirror image of the Ionian across the same axis


never noticed that before - the sequence of tones and semi-tones is reversed

Ionian T-T-S-T-T-T-S (ascending)

Phrygian S-T-T-T-S-T-T (ascending)

or better still, Ionian ascending and Phrygian descending are THE SAME!

Woooooooo!!!!

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 15:55:08
 
kitarist

Posts: 689
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

you could run each diagram like a movie and watch it evolve) and Observe the tritone advancing by half step around the circle. Simply put it runs by half step counter clockwise to darken the mode or clockwise to brighten the mode. And therefore changing the key or modulation to a neighbor on the circle of 5ths is akin to brightening or darkening a single mode and viewed say on the fingerboard as simply shifting your physical tritone grip up or down a fret. This is how modes should be taught and organized... as per circle of 5ths, NOT by steps ascending.

Lydian-Ionian-mixolydian-dorian-Aeolian-phrygian-locrian


Here :



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 17:40:27
 
kitarist

Posts: 689
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

or better still, Ionian ascending and Phrygian descending are THE SAME!

Woooooooo!!!!


If you play Entre Dos Aguas backwards and transpose you get the Spring Allegro from Vivaldi's The Four Seasons!

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 18:39:27
 
kitarist

Posts: 689
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I guess it does make it easier for some to visualize that way?


Here are some other cool representations. Elaine Chew in 2000 defended a PhD called "Towards a Mathematical Model of Tonality". The ultimate focus of that was to enable automated/computational recognition of tonality etc. but she did come up with a very interesting modification of the circle of fifths:

Start from the circle of fifths. Now pull it apart in the third dimension so it is an ascending spiral (really a helix), except tighten it so one rotation is accomplished by moving only 4 (not 12) spots around. She calls it the spiral array model, and distances between nodes now nicely represent different intervals and major and minor triads visually. Going horizontally to the next neighbour gets you a perfect fifth just like the circle of fifths; going up to the neighbouring node is ascending by a major third; descending diagonally between these to complete the triangle is a minor third, so triangles are major or minor triad chords, etc.





The major key representation with its I IV and V major triads form a stable-looking "neighbourhood" with all three traingles lying on their side (rather than balancing on a point like with minor triads):




Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 19:00:29
 
Piwin

Posts: 2414
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist

Man you're giving me flashbacks of those tuning lattices for just intonation
You math people are nuts. Look I made a tuning diamond. I made a triangle. I made a spiral. I made an 11-dimensional figure in which all the modes exist simultaneously until you open it and inside you find a dead cat meowing in Myxolodian.
Y'all are nuts.

_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 21:00:46
 
kitarist

Posts: 689
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Y'all are nuts.


Awww, THANK YOU!!

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 21:11:08
 
Piwin

Posts: 2414
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist



_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 21:40:04
 
kitarist

Posts: 689
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

I made a spiral.


I hesitated to add this but hey, why not!

So after Chew's helix (spiral array) in 2000, in 2006 Harte et al.(*) took the helix and bent it around so that after three loops (a full octave), it arrives where it started to signify that pitches 1+ octaves apart are the same pitch class. Whereas the helix after 3 loops is just a three-loops-high tube.

So we get this below, except I think they screwed up and should have drawn the line rotating the other way to match the circle of fifths ascending as it goes clockwise around.

For clarity, I added the inset on the right re: semitone numbering and wrote in pitches in the case of tonic (0) = C. See how, if you mentally stand up the "tire" in front of you as if you are going to roll it slowly toward you, with C (0) facing you, E (4) is directly above C (0) on the outside diameter (that's one spiral loop completed), then comes Ab (8) above E (second spiral loop completed), and finally third loop completion brings up back to C(0), at which point the "tire" itself has completed one full rotation. Red colour for the pitch positions visible to us; grey for the ones on the opposite side of the torus/donut.



(*) C Harte, M Sandler, M Gasser, 2006. Detecting Harmonic Change In Musical Audio.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 22:28:50
 
Piwin

Posts: 2414
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist





(sorry, I couldn't resist!)

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 22:48:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11335
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist

The “giant steps” Taurus?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 23:15:05
 
kitarist

Posts: 689
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

I think Homer ate all the flats

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2019 23:20:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11335
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist

Finally read through milne

quote:

Furthermore, this hypothesis allows us to describe and explain tonalities that have been largely ignored by traditional theory, such as the melodic major scale and the flamenco cadence.


Thought it strange he points this out but not the flamenco “almost” cadence in the double harmonic major description. The double harmonic major also justifies the “II7-I” cadence, even though it doesn’t account for the larger scope of the Harmonic practices.

He expounds on the “melodic major” scale and it’s minor v harmony, but fails to point out it is simply mode 5 of melodic minor, it’s MOST commonly used mode in tonal music actually, especially ascending, and therefore the minor v chord he talks about is then mode 2 of melodic minor....that’s our lovely Manuel de Falla scale discussed earlier (phrygian #6). Hardly “virgin” harmonic territory in other words.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 14:38:04
 
JasonM

Posts: 1056
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

This thread hurts my Homer sized brain.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 15:13:07
 
Piwin

Posts: 2414
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to JasonM

quote:

This thread hurts my Homer sized brain.


Same!

@kitarist
Jokes aside, I do find those kinds of representations interesting, although they fly over my head. I understand the basic tonnetz for just intonation and see the benefit of it. Among other things it gives a very clear representation of distances compared to a root chord (as compared to, say, learning chords linearly (degree by degree) off of a scale). But that's where I drop off. Once they apply the tonnetz to equal temperament and start making toruses, my brain shuts off

On a side note, in the book "Modalogy" by Jeff Brent, which has some interesting bits and pieces about modes organized around the concept of radial symmetry, they include an "E Spanish Phrygian Scale". They list it as part of "common heptatonic scales with an added note", and more specifically as the 3rd mode of the C Bebop major scale. They describe it as "hybrid-Phrygian and Phrygian dominant" to be used "in phrygian environments and V7 of composite minor". Which is probably enough for the use of that scale for jazz players. But the real benefit I see in their descriptions of "octatonic" scales in this book is the funny names you end up with: "phrygiolian" (phrygian add nat.2) and "doriolian" (dorian add flat 6) are my favorites Anyway, that may be a common nomenclature for you experts here but but it was the first time I ran into it and I got a good laugh out of it

_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 15:44:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11335
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Anyway, that may be a common nomenclature for you experts here but but it was the first time I ran into it and I got a good laugh out of it


Both the names AND the concept of what they infer are hilarious 😂

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 16:12:15
 
Piwin

Posts: 2414
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

A bit further there's "G Myxolodian augmented octatonic" and they write "aka dominant augmented, aka dogmented). Dogmented....
At some point it ends up just sounding like the names of sex positions or skateboard tricks. 180 dogmented to phrygiolian nollie grind.

_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 16:26:44
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2697
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

Another version of the Phrygian mode-scale/flamenco scale (I dunno wtf to call it anymore...) is this one I came across in a very odd article on the "history of flamenco" by Alain Gobin. He calls it "Andalusian Scale":



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 17:06:46
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2697
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Dogmented....


just play a moronic minor scale over a demented chord

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 17:28:22
 
Piwin

Posts: 2414
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

this one I came across


Double harmonic going up, phrygian going down.
let's see... Wikipedia says double harmonic is also called "Byzantine scale". So let's say Phrygiantine scale? Byzrygian scale?

_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 17:45:56
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 123
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

Elementary music theory says that any scale degree tends to resolve upwards and downwards. We all know 1 and 8 are the home notes/chords. 5 leaves us hanging. The 7th scale degree (leading tone) wants to resolve upwards to 8.

Now the 4, which is relevant for derivation of Andalusian cadence. 4th scale degree has a strong tendency to resolve down.

E Phrygian E F G A B C D E. Which is our 4? The rest is simple. Is this a simple explanation of the origin of Andalusian cadence? Any thoughts?

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 17:58:53
 
kitarist

 

Posts: 689
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 12 2019 20:42:17
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 18:08:57
 
kitarist

Posts: 689
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Thought it strange he points this out but not the flamenco “almost” cadence in the double harmonic major description. The double harmonic major also justifies the “II7-I” cadence, even though it doesn’t account for the larger scope of the Harmonic practices.


I thought in general he could have run through his bottom-up construct with the flamenco tonality the way he goes through in more detail about the minor tonality. Instead he just mentions flamenco and the bII-I cadence (as he notated it) once or twice in passing.

I admit I got less interested once he got into double harmonic major and the other scales, so I am glad you understand it and provided your comments.

I did like a lot his very clear exposition of key assumptions, core (proto ) constructs, and their implications for melody and harmony functions. I always like to understand the 'why', not just the 'how', and Milne has provided me with a lot of that.

BTW, for reference and for those interested, here are two great books I found available freely on archive.org:

1. Schoenberg's "Structural Functions of Harmony": https://archive.org/details/SchoenbergArnoldStructuralFunctionsOfHarmony



2. Barbour's "Tuning and Temperaments - a Historical Survey": https://archive.org/details/tuningtemperamen00barb/page/n5



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 18:18:50
 
Piwin

Posts: 2414
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

The 7th scale degree (leading tone) wants to resolve upwards to 8


Scale degree isn't the right concept for this. With a regular diatonic scale, the scale degree just tells you the position of the note in the scale. In a major or harmonic minor scale, the seventh degree is the leading tone and indeed it wants to resolve upwards to the octave. However, the 7th scale degree in natural minor is a half-step lower and it doesn't have the same pull towards the octave. That's why melodic minor uses harmonic minor when it ascends and natural minor when it descends. Both of these scales (harmonic minor and natural minor) have a 7th scale degree, but in one case it wants to resolve upwards and in the other it doesn't. So scale degree isn't the right concept for this.

_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 18:26:56
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2697
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Phrygiantine scale? Byzrygian scale?
Phriggin-Giant-Bizarre-mode-scale?

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 18:43:01
 
Piwin

Posts: 2414
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

Phriggin-Giant-Bizarre-mode-scale?



_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 19:25:01
Page:   <<   <   5 6 [7] 8 9    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   5 6 [7] 8 9    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.109375 secs.