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RE: Which scales?   You are logged in as Guest
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Beni2

 

Posts: 69
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

See you got backwards.

Ugh. First of all, there is no bII. This happens in academic discussions of flamenco all the time as in Hess's discussion of flamenco in her book about de Falla or Grout and Palisca's discussion of flamenco in their chapter on Bizet. Whichever scale-degree key you are in, the scale determines the roman numeral. You don't say biii in minor because it is implied in the scale-degree/key.

That aside, II is not a substitute for anything. Flamenco shares common features with popular/folk because social groups are never completely isolated. It is distinct enough to assume that at least some of its important features, especially in combination, are unique to it. II acts like a dominant but is not. Even with the raise sixth it will never substitute for the dominant and vice-verse [in the basic system - not talking about advanced solo playing but the system itself].
quote:

The superficial octatonic natural phyrigian dominant hybrid (ie modal) and it’s derived chord scale, or any others folks want to claim as the “basis” of flamenco phrygian forms, which it is NOT.

That is not my claim. Theories attempt to explain something. Some do a better job than others. Only the flamenco octatonic scale can account for all diatonic chords and the tonic with its proper raised 3rd. You could also say that the harmonic minor is not, or the phrygian is not because neither of them explain the totality of the system. Therefore, I think the flamenco octatonic works nicely because of its ease. I also gave four examples which show have to be explained either by claiming that they are mixing phrygian and phrygian dominant or omitting notes at their composer leisure. Either will work.
quote:



quote:
Are you talking the basic diatonic circle of fifths, or the chromatic versions that arise through sequencing, voice-leading techniques, etc.

Well the basic one obviously.

Can you give and example that uses the cycle of fifths that includes the V in phrygian? I cannot find any in the pillar. In Paco, perhaps?
quote:

its weak, just as weak as the v-i in minor key. My dancer friend calls it “gay”. . Anyway, for sure old schoolers balk at such “deceptive cadences” that prefer the old stuff. When I said “abandon” it, I am speaking in terms of the way the “v” is abandoned for the stronger “V” in minor key songs. Not like it’s outcast from society for all eternity

Lol. Politically correct she's not. These silly flailers.
In a master class a really good teacher scoffed at CM7 in solea. Yet he uses its equivalent in other palos. Maybe it was a particular voicing [because those guys fon't know inversions are the same chord ] but I got the feeling he thought it was "gay."
Maybe its a vocab/terminology thing. The v is not abandoned...composers make choices about what they want to use. As for the Nino Miguel, the v7 chord (half dim) occurs on the third, sixth, and ninth beat and give a clear harmonic accent. Rhythm and meter are often ignored in discussions of harmony but harmonic change has important implications for them and vice verse. For that reason, I do not hear it the same way you do. Imagine if he abandoned it for some other chord.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2019 19:12:55
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 566
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Beni2

quote:

Wow. Jazz is not my forte and I based my example on Levine's. My point stands.

How wow? Your example is wrong and you still haven't accepted it, yet your point stands? Do you hear the word 'arrogant' a lot as you wander your lecture theatres?

quote:

In the basic flamenco phrygian tonal system V cannot and does not substitute for II. If you believe that it does then play it whenever II should be used, say, next time you are accompanying por solea.


I was only pointing out your spelling mistake and commenting on the rationale behind using tritone substitutions. You're emphasising at the wrong dude, dude.

(I also raised the use of the E dominant proper (B7) in the cambio at the end of a por arriba piece in the other version of this thread I (the much missed Lenny's thread about por arriba) to distinguish it from the Fmaj7#11 so I'm not sure where my counter-argument is?)

quote:

yet here we have been pointing out the gazillian examples IN FLAMENCO PROPER of it’s use and function in flamenco


Your posts are immensely long and detailed chronicles, like the eddas or upanishads and I don't read them. I just don't have the mental energy to invest in something that doesn't address what I'm saying. So, I don't recall anything about F7#11 being played instead of F(maj7#11) at beat 3 in Solea, for example. I'm quite ready to allow all chords to appear at various points but that is not one of them.

quote:

flamenco music is a FREAKING DIFFERENT DISCIPLINE!!!!
and has its own atmosphere, yes....

quote:

The “wealth of commonly held theory” is locked up in the hands of the maestros and the heads of the cantaores. Folks like me who understand what’s going on working proffesionally in the field, are simply trying to TRANSLATE the concepts to folks like YOU and others that understand the OTHER disciplines (somewhat) with your jazz and tonal harmony books that never get into it. The few individuals that HAVE written about the “theory” behind flamenco harmony, don’t appear to be qualified IMO as they simply keep bringing up or pointing towards the superficial on goings, adding to the common laymen misconceptions, as I SEE IT anyway, having worked in this genre for over 20 years.


Oh, dear! "You and your new fangled 'jazz' books, coming along and trying to account for things that we masters know, but don't explain because we are simple goat herders/horse traders like Gerardo Nunez". What a pathetic response. If it held water it would be refererable and, as you observe, the only responses are from students wanting to push a new angle without understanding it. And just in case you think you have seen an opportunity, I'm not a student.

Anyway, OP, I'd try the harmonic minor a fourth up from your tonal centre to start with. Then focus on mode V. All but one of the chords can be harmonised from it and if you add the Phrygian dominant m3rd you'll have it all covered. For an alternative view I refer you to 'Revenge of the 6ths: towards a new beginning' vols. I through XCIV'.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2019 21:48:56
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2019 22:05:01
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 566
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: Romerito

quote:

How wow? Your example is wrong and you still haven't accepted it, yet your point stands? Do you hear the word 'arrogant' a lot as you wander your lecture theatres?

Ouch. I get that sometimes. I'm not really arrogant. Perhaps it's my delivery.

At any rate, to avoid a long post, my point is that V never substitutes for II in the basic phrygian tonal system. It is only in advanced usage in SOLO contexts that substitution occurs.
I will chalk up your name-calling to my unfortunate style but. I challenge you to show me anywhere in traditional flamenco where tritone substitution occurs as part of the system.

Even if you do, I'm sure it won't be in the Levinian/Rawlings sense with alt chords. I cannot find any so the burden is on you? With utmost respect, I'l wait. 😉


quote:

..

quote:

The “wealth of commonly held theory” is locked up in the hands of the maestros and the heads of the cantaores. Folks like me who understand what’s going on working proffesionally in the field, are simply trying to TRANSLATE the concepts to folks like YOU and others that understand the OTHER disciplines (somewhat) with your jazz and tonal harmony books that never get into it. The few individuals that HAVE written about the “theory” behind flamenco harmony, don’t appear to be qualified IMO as they simply keep bringing up or pointing towards the superficial on goings, adding to the common laymen misconceptions, as I SEE IT anyway, having worked in this genre for over 20 years.


Oh, dear! "You and your new fangled 'jazz' books, coming along and trying to account for things that we masters know, but don't explain because we are simple goat herders/horse traders like Gerardo Nunez". What a pathetic response. If it held water it would be refererable and, as you observe, the only responses are from students wanting to push a new angle without understanding it. And just in case you think you have seen an opportunity, I'm not a student.

Anyway, OP, I'd try the harmonic minor a fourth up from your tonal centre to start with. Then focus on mode V. All but one of the chords can be harmonised from it and if you add the Phrygian dominant m3rd you'll have it all covered. For an alternative view I refer you to 'Revenge of the 6ths: towards a new beginning' vols. I through XCIV'.

I know my own faults and weaknesses and they are many. But you have assumed that I am a student or academic as if we only have one identity in life. I also studied with two masters, expatriates from Spain for six years in what is arguably the best place to study in the US.

Hmmm...OP? I know that the harmonic minor and it's relative phrygian dominant cannot account for the III chord, neither melodical or harmonically. Phrygian dominant m3? Nice sarcasm...who's being an * now? And you seem to be conflating Ricardo's post with an your interpretation my posts. There are some things that are most definitely locked in the heads of gitanos/flamencos/fragueros perhaps some small part of which others do not have access too. Whether they affect music...my opinion is yes, but not enough that others can't do flamenco.

On a final note, citations support an argument. Why would anyone believe you, or me, or Ricardo without some support.


Sorry, there is so much wrong with your response that I ended up selecting the lot of it, sentence by sentence. I'm not even sure that you read and thought about what I said.

So...calling you arrogant is not name calling, it's an assessment based on your responses (still no mea culpa btw). Online text writing is not perceived generously though, I'll give you that. We're all no doubt nicer than our writing would imply.

... it's NOT ME that is saying there is a tritone sub! That isn't my argument. I'm arguing with you on the nature of tritone subs and your rote reference from a popular jazz book (i.e not 'Proceedings of Jazz Journal Letters Whatever'). It was a sidebar. I carry no burden of proof as I dgaf. I am secure - but not arrogant - as I am open to being persuaded and am asking for texts to consult.

...I was talking to Ricardo in the last quote, not you. I get the impression that you are an academic, as I checked you out after your first quite academic post in this thread, and I saw you play so I figured tuff enough to be challenged.

...OP is Original Poster. I simply repeated the simplicity of my harmonic conjecture as that has always been what the post was about and i wanted to help, rather than confuse the guy with all this harmony weight lifting.

...you are attacking the wrong man here. Do you not understand what m3rd means in the context of a major tonality mode? How is that sarcastic? If you mean the Gerardo Nunez stuff then, yeah, that WAS sarcastic and I think it's a fair response to overweening arrogance. It's also an attempt to inject a little humour into a rather confrontational series of posts. But no, sarcasm is never right. In fact it's a sin.

...I'm not conflating, I'm referring to both of you in the same response. That's quite different. I think.

...your point on citations is exactly mine of course. Where are the references?

So, please back off with the ad hominem attacks and read what I say. It doesn't have to be correct and if it isn't, say why, but at least read it.

I have faults too and being perfect is one of them. Attack away, I'm outta here.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 0:14:04
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 69
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

I'm arguing with you on the nature of tritone subs and your rote reference from a popular jazz book (i.e not 'Proceedings of Jazz Journal Letters Whatever

Again with the nature of a tritone sub. I admitted I don't know jazz or jazz theory very well. I try to understand for several reasons. 1. All of us study as much as we can drawing info from multiple sources. 2. A few people keep claiming that V subs for II or aug6 are subs for the V in flamenco (broadly conceived).
quote:

You are attacking the wrong man here. Do you not understand what m3rd means in the context of a major tonality mode?

Not gonna even respond except to say that "A New Hope: Diabolus en Tatooine" or is it tritone? Anyway, good day.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 5:56:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11949
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

Your posts are immensely long and detailed chronicles, like the eddas or upanishads and I don't read them. I just don't have the mental energy to invest in something that doesn't address what I'm saying. So, I don't recall anything about F7#11 being played instead of F(maj7#11) at beat 3 in Solea, for example. I'm quite ready to allow all chords to appear at various points but that is not one of them.


I’ve addressed you directly and concisely several times regarding your points. Sorry if you refuse to read the more detailed ones that addressed your concerns, and that you missed the printed score examples of F7#11 “instead of” Fmaj7#11. They are there to look at but since you are so cool you have no time to read a damn thing I wrote and prefer to take time to make underhanded comments about goat herding flamencos, please have fun with your A harmonic minor G chords, I’m done with you.


quote:

Ugh. First of all, there is no bII. This happens in academic discussions of flamenco all the time as in Hess's discussion of flamenco in her book about de Falla or Grout and Palisca's discussion of flamenco in their chapter on Bizet. Whichever scale-degree key you are in, the scale determines the roman numeral. You don't say biii in minor because it is implied in the scale-degree/key.

That aside, II is not a substitute for anything. Flamenco shares common features with popular/folk because social groups are never completely isolated.


No, that’s what I mean by “backwards”. I’m trying to show how one could justify such a thing as a flamenco phrygian tonal system in the first place, and you are already pretending that the thing exists and is commonly accepted by the academia of music theory land, and everyone on foro and trying to point out some error I’m making about a freaking b2. Worse, you pulled my statement out of the context of where I was pointing out your confusion about what “tritone sub” means. And let’s be clear, you are confused because you keep thinking that we are ALL talking about an already agreed upon established framework for “Spanish phrygian tonal system”, where tritone subbing just doesn’t happen.

quote:

II acts like a dominant but is not. Even with the raise sixth it will never substitute for the dominant and vice-verse [in the basic system - not talking about advanced solo playing but the system itself].
. Well, as I keep saying, take it up with Tschaikovsky, cuz we both say you are dead wrong right there.... and worse, since you can’t admit we are correct, then you are left with a non functioning “spanish phrygian tonal system”, just like Boredo over here with his harmonic F minus, so you two can have fun doing whatever non functioning flamenco harmonies y’all think so cool and spanishy, and I’ll keep doing what I know is actually happening in the genre. 🙄

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 10:02:27
 
Piwin

Posts: 2795
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Beni2

quote:

Everyone knows the anecdote about the tritone in the middle-ages


Guess this is off-topic (but I'm not feeling too bad about it because this whole thing started with someone just asking which scales to learn to start flamenco ) but do we know whether the tritone actually had a particular meaning in the Middle-Ages? I figured that the association with "evil" is something that came along much later. When it's finally referred to as the "devil in music", we're well into the Enlightenment years.

I figured that its relative absence in medieval music and the fact that certain composers explicitly proscribed it had to do with the fact that they were composing music to be played basically in stone churches. And anyone composing for that sort of setting would most likely use a lot less dissonance than we do today. With that kind of reverberation, strong dissonance just turns into musical mud.

Anyway, that doesn't change your point that the significance of musical elements is culturally determined. I just have my doubts that medieval folks had anything to do with this particular association.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 11:41:48
 
Brendan

Posts: 204
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

they were composing music to be played basically in stone churches. And anyone composing for that sort of setting would most likely use a lot less dissonance than we do today. With that kind of reverberation, strong dissonance just turns into musical mud.


Gee, thanks fella. Now I’ve got to find transcriptions of medieval music played in wooden or wattle & daub buildings, to prove that they definitely played F7#11 at some point, but only because they were confused about harmony and stumbled into playing B7b5. I had plans for today, and you just ruined them.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 12:04:28
 
Piwin

Posts: 2795
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Brendan

Most of the references you need can be found in GROSPIF, P.J. and FLUFFYNOSE, P.D. "A diachronic survey of reverberation-dissonance perception relatedness from 1066 (suck it rosbeefs!) to 1415 (Talk to the hand froggies!)" IN Fuxology: the international journal of serious people with silly names , v. 314159, pp. 68,002-∞, 2015: Bob's basement publishing.

I remember it well because it was in that same volume that was issued the foundational paper "Twitter hashtags: the corporate conspiracy to silence the accidentals' rights movement."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 14:10:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11949
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

but do we know whether the tritone actually had a particular meaning in the Middle-Ages?


From wiki tritone:

“It seems first to have been designated as a "dangerous" interval when Guido of Arezzo developed his system of hexachords and with the introduction of B flat as a diatonic note, at much the same time acquiring its nickname of "Diabolus in Musica" ("the devil in music").[25]”

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 15:05:45
 
Piwin

Posts: 2795
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

I mean, enlarge the focus of the quote and things look a bit different, no? (added bold to highlight what I think is the important part)

"Although the latter two of these authors [referring to Telemann and Mattheson, both early 18th century] cite the association with the devil as from the past, there are no known citations of this term from the Middle Ages, as is commonly asserted. However Denis Arnold, in the New Oxford Companion to Music, suggests that the nickname was already applied early in the medieval music itself:

It seems first to have been designated as a "dangerous" interval when Guido of Arezzo developed his system of hexachords (...)"

As far as I can recall, Guido d'Arezzo simply said that the interval should be avoided. There was no moral judgement on it or association with "danger" or "evil". That only shows up with Telemann, Fux and the like. So dunno, either Denis Arnold did find contemporary citations for this and the Wikipedia article is wrong in saying no such citations exist, or there are no such citations and he's just making **** up. That said, I know that historians have their own standards of evidence. Maybe the lack of contemporary citations isn't a problem for them if they have later citations referring to the past that they deem reliable. Dunno.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 15:23:20
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11949
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

The devil business applied to other intervals such as minor seconds, if you read further.

Anyway, going farther back to 7th century BC, Chinese music developed the 5 note pentatonic derived from 5th intervals, deliberately avoiding the tritone sound in their system, as they associated the tritone (as produced from stacking two more 5ths, sort of like lydian mode) as a gateway to the spirit world.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 15:28:11
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 69
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Beni2

I just don't have time to respond to all of this.
I am not sure I ever said anything about goat herders. If I were going to refer to occupations of early flamencos it would have been fragueros and such.

The ONLY point I was trying to make stands. V cannot and does not substitute for II in the basic system for phrygian-tonal palos

This is a losing battle for me so I will bow out and share what I can elsewhere.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 16:54:08
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 566
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I’m done with you
Exit 3rd guitarist with luxuriant hair blowing in breeze from hand held fan.

I don't suppose we can still be friends?

Anyway, its good to know that flamenco puro is safe, over there in the US.

If you ever get to London, you might appreciate that when we find people arrogant or full of their own authority we take the piss. I've been doing that and you've been inflating and inflating...

I will sometime look for what you have said in your earlier posts as they seem to be the only recorded version of the theory in existence. But it's still interesting.

Boredo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 17:20:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11949
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

I don't suppose we can still be friends?


What’s a g natural among friends?

Yes please take the piss or whatever you need to do, I’m only an arrogant long hair American full of authority and self righteousness due to my undying love and support of my beloved goat herders. Forgive me.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 17:30:40
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

https://media.giphy.com/media/Dj8NIuXppqHAY/giphy.gif
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 18:37:52
 
Escribano

Posts: 6023
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: Italy

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Guest

Why are you posting under two different display names? I am putting your posts under Admin approval for a while, on both accounts.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 20:07:46
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 69
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Escribano

No worries Simon! Not trying to deceive anyone. I have several accounts because after not posting for awhile I'd forget which email was attached to which account.

As for whether to continue here, I am not sure. I guess I will give a go of sharing basic theory from scratch and let people decide what, if anything they find valuable, or not.

If you don't mind I'd like to keep Beni2 and Romerito.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2019 4:59:10
 
Escribano

Posts: 6023
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: Italy

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Beni2

quote:

If you don't mind I'd like to keep Beni2 and Romerito.


But no more, thanks.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2019 9:55:28
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2991
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

Nonetheless, where are the references to Phrygian key please? I mean real ones, not arguments. I can't find ANY information describing it, beyond its assertion as valid. Where is the wealth of commonly held theory? I'm up for being persuaded. The simplicity of the harmony I hear in old flamenco is just too fantastic and it must tie together somehow.


Ricardo's reply that "The “wealth of commonly held theory” is locked up in the hands of the maestros and the heads of the cantaores." totally holds IMO - flamenco artists know what they are doing, even if historically academics didn't see fit to write about it.

But I also remembered Claude Worms' 3 volumes of "Harmonizing Flamenco from the guitar". I don't know what the degree holding theory people make of this, but here's a link to the first volume:

https://www.storemusic-live.eu/Articulo~x~Harmonizing-flamenco-from-the-guitar-vol-1-book-claude-worms~IDArticulo~357.html

Not sure how much i can scan under fair use, maybe a page would be ok? or two? that would probably be enough for people to get the gist of his approach... if anyone is interested?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 27 2019 18:18:55
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

Thanks for finding that (though I'd hope that if one is going to publish a book one would proof read a bit more (2nd inv)). Tbh my stages of 'being interested' have got to go through the 'free online stuff' stage first
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 27 2019 21:28:55
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2991
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

Tbh my stages of 'being interested' have got to go through the 'free online stuff' stage first


I wasn't asking for payment for scanning a couple of pages and uploading them.... it would be free, and you could look at it online....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2019 13:41:28
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

It's really amazing how doggedly people will insist on taking umbrage once they have dug in.

I'm not talking about you - I thanked you. I'm talking about buying the books. Which I am not going to do.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2019 13:48:26
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

free and online, a page and a third...





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2019 13:59:54
 
Piwin

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2019 14:30:43
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2991
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

I'm talking about buying the books. Which I am not going to do.

I realised that, wasn't expecting anyone to rush out and buy the books. I offered to scan and upload a couple pages though.

I should have put a couple of these after "it would be free, and you could look at it online....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2019 14:40:17
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

.

?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2019 14:41:38
 
Piwin

Posts: 2795
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

?


I made my point.
I had written something about copyright but by the time I had finished you had already posted the pages so it was irrelevant and I "deleted" it. Left the post though just in case I had something worth saying after I read the pages (which I haven't yet). Hence the "."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2019 15:20:46
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 559
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

I'm talking about buying the books. Which I am not going to do.

I realised that, wasn't expecting anyone to rush out and buy the books. I offered to scan and upload a couple pages though.

I should have put a couple of these after "it would be free, and you could look at it online....


I'm ready to swap some good flamenco materials. I need all 3 Volumes of your Claude Worms book. I have Manuel Granado's Metodo Visual de la Guitarra Flamenca DVD 1-3. Interested?

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2019 17:20:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11949
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

While there are a lot of confused word usage in that worms theory description, (and I could go line by line to clarify what he is trying to say if anybody wants me to), but the main point I agree with is under flamenco cadence section when he states:

“The cadence II-I has the same terminal value in the “flamenco mode” as the perfect cadence (V7-I) in tonal harmony”.

However I wish he had first justified this statement rather than just put it out there matter of factly as if all those that understand tonal harmony must accept it on face value. I say this because outside of foro I have had this argument with non flamencos that would insist there is no such thing going on and the I of solea is in fact just the V of Aminor key and his variable G note issue is done away with as it’s simply how the key of A minor functions. These individuals would have a field day with Worms text here as he falls into all the typical traps of miss naming things that happen in flamenco.

“remember that for the classical harmony the Andalusian cadence is a dominant cadence in a minor key”.... then proceed to use Roman numerals incorrectly if it were in fact true what he said. This careless statement for example sets up a big mess of problems, worst of which admits he is inventing new theory to be used in place of a supposedly “classical harmony” one. Hence why refer to it At All? In any case I feel there actually IS a correct way to do this thing and examples such as this one and countless other attempts are not helpful.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2019 19:55:04
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