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devilhand

 

Posts: 148
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

Which scales? 

Hello guys

3 questions from a flamenco beginner. Flamenco is not jazz. So I want to learn only those scales that are used for all/most of the palos. The purpose is picado runs (I know it's not common for accompaniment) and learning/improvising falsetas.

(1) What are these? Major and minor scale with their modes are enough? Any other exotic scale?

(2) After I know which scales, should I learn all 5 positions of each scale or are there any positions that are commonly used?

(3) In which keys are they mostly played?

Much appreciated!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2019 17:31:42
 
kitarist

Posts: 693
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

(1) What are these? Major and minor scale with their modes are enough? Any other exotic scale?


Why start with minor and major? For flamenco, start with phrygian scale patterns.

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2019 18:35:46
 
Auda

 

Posts: 101
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

http://canteytoque.es/pmiexc.htm#alzap%C3%BAa
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2019 19:45:07
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 537
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

Yep Phrygian and phyrgian dominant lines are the typical fair. However in modern flamenco there's a lot of room given for numerous voicings, some in line with a more jazzy and fusion feel.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2019 21:26:09
 
Mark2

Posts: 1485
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

Whole tone and diminished crop up now and then in modern stuff. Melodic and harmonic minor with their modes. Of course the major scale and it's modes. Flamenco is NOT jazz but more and more young players are trained in different scale applications. Just learn them all.....I do seven positions for major, harmonic minor, melodic minor, and their modes. I was taught seven positions for the major scale so I see the neck that way for the others as well. Dim and whole tone are of course different.

For years I got by using the major scale, along with harmonic minor, dim, and whole tone in playing popular music. In the last couple of years I've really dug into melodic minor and it's modes cause I've been studying jazz stuff. I'm seeing relationships on the fret board that I never really saw my first forty years of guitar playing. Shame it took me so long..... but nice that it happened.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2019 23:25:24
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 537
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

^ agree melodic minor really does open up numerous possibilities because there are so many outside the box ways to apply it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2019 23:36:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11366
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

The Chromatic scale and all its derivations are used. Meaning any and every scale can be applied once you understand the song form parameters.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2019 23:56:02
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 148
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The Chromatic scale and all its derivations are used. Meaning any and every scale can be applied once you understand the song form parameters.


So I have to learn any scale I can imagine. This is not good news. I thought there must be a few ones one should concentrate on.
For example E phrygian. If I want to play solea, then "only" E phrygian mode must be used for falseta and picado. The same goes for por medio with A phrygian.

What are the song form parameters?

quote:

I was taught seven positions for the major scale so I see the neck that way for the others as well.


Thanks for the hint. I'll look into it. All the scales and their modes you mentioned will be on my to-do list asap.

Btw, no one mentions (natural) minor scale and its modes. Is this that uncommon in flamenco?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2019 16:23:24
 
mt1007

Posts: 73
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

Devilhand,

The natural minor is part of the major scale. Learning the major scale and all its modes is a huge task and will take time to learn especially if you want to be able to improvise. You got scale positions studies, interval studies, arpeggio studies, etc.. Which can be applied to the major scale and all its modes. I would also do the same with the harmonic minor scale and melodic minor scale. Apart from all the studies I mentioned you can also create your own picado studies when working on these scales. So not only will you be learning the major scale, etc.. You can work on your picado at the same time as well. Learning these scales however simple or exotic they are doesn't mean you will sound flamenco, jazz, etc.. It all comes down to how you use them, what context you apply them in. The knowledge you gain will be applicable to all music, not only flamenco, jazz, etc...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2019 16:55:05
 
Mark2

Posts: 1485
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand


For example E phrygian. If I want to play solea, then "only" E phrygian mode must be used for falseta and picado. The same goes for por medio with A phrygian.



That would be incorrect. You can use other scales in creating falsetas for solea, or any other form. Harmonic minor for example is often used in solea. You should learn as many scales in as many positions as possible, but really , you should learn falsetas from the maestros. Learn 100 solea falsetas of all types. It's not the scales, IMO, it's the application.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2019 18:02:19
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11366
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

The Chromatic scale and all its derivations are used. Meaning any and every scale can be applied once you understand the song form parameters.


So I have to learn any scale I can imagine. This is not good news. I thought there must be a few ones one should concentrate on.
For example E phrygian. If I want to play solea, then "only" E phrygian mode must be used for falseta and picado. The same goes for por medio with A phrygian.

What are the song form parameters?

quote:

I was taught seven positions for the major scale so I see the neck that way for the others as well.


Thanks for the hint. I'll look into it. All the scales and their modes you mentioned will be on my to-do list asap.

Btw, no one mentions (natural) minor scale and its modes. Is this that uncommon in flamenco?


Lots to un pack here.

First of all forget about any scales at all FOR FLAMENCO. To learn forms first learn
1. COMPAS patterns. And next
2.FALSETAS
For each Form that has a separate name.

Inside of these two Musical structures you will discover the variety of chords and scales you will actually need.

Nothing wrong with learning scales and modes outside of but along with learning flamenco forms. But it’s general theory work you do here, that can be later applied if you become so ambitious to do so. But absolutely not necessary.

About natural minor. The scale itself is the Aeolian mode, nothing more. The reason for the different nomenclature is that the natural minor scale will be described under the umbrella of a MINOR key, which might make use of accidentals against the key signature such that several different scales come into use due to changing harmonic progressions. Same reason the Ionian mode is distinguished from the major key it belongs too.... because a key will mix up chords and scales using accidentals that travel away and back towards the tonic.

When aldimeola Steve vai or yngwie vamp a single chord that uses the phrygian dominant scales up and down, many folks hear that as flamenco type sounding music. Yes it’s modal but flamenco is not really that most of the time. Think of flamenco as exactly like any music that is in a major or minor KEY, such that any accidental can be used, any chord and it’s corresponding scale that reflects the melody. The unique thing is flamenco uses a PHRYGIAN key center, not a single mode or scale. Hope this helps.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2019 18:31:49
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 148
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Learn 100 solea falsetas of all types. It's not the scales, IMO, it's the application.

quote:

First of all forget about any scales at all FOR FLAMENCO. To learn forms first learn
1. COMPAS patterns... 2.FALSETAS


Of course I want to learn/copy falsetas from maestros. But I want to understand what I play there.
Without having learnt my first falseta, I think that falsetas are build around scales (correct me if I'm wrong).
So I want to analyse and study falsetas through scales. I do believe, this way I can learn the anatomy of falseta and can create my own falsetas later. Am I right?

quote:

The reason for the different nomenclature is that the natural minor scale will be described under the umbrella of a MINOR key, which might make use of accidentals against the key signature such that several different scales come into use due to changing harmonic progressions. Same reason the Ionian mode is distinguished from the major key it belongs too.... because a key will mix up chords and scales using accidentals that travel away and back towards the tonic.


I didn't understand. I thought Ionian/Aeolian mode and major/minor scale is just the same thing with different names.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2019 16:19:35
 
mt1007

Posts: 73
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

Devilhand,

For scales, theory, etc.. please check out Rick Beato, he is always putting out great content. All which is applicable to flamenco and all other music.



To analyze a falseta, palo etc from a theory point of view, it's going to take some time especially if you don't have basic theory knowledge.

My recommendation is to learn flamenco forms, falsetas, compass, estudios for right and left hand, etc... how to play for cante, for baile and the list goes on. But especially compass, without compass falsetas etc are worthless.

Once you got some basic compass, falsetas etc and some music theory knowledge you can start to fill in the blanks and make connections. There will be no shortcuts either way...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2019 16:56:40
 
Piwin

Posts: 2438
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Am I right?

I doubt it.

quote:

I thought Ionian/Aeolian mode and major/minor scale is just the same thing with different names.


Different musical contexts. It's like if someone says F sharp or G flat. Same pitch (well...yeah let's go with "same pitch" ^^). But I can infer a lot about the music context depending on which of the two a person says. Same thing with major/Ionian and minor/Aeolian. It's the same collection of pitches, but I can infer a lot about the musical context depending on which term is used.

But the key concept here (lol) is the one you didn't mention: key. I think if you explore what a key is and what it means, you'll understand better what Ricardo is saying.

_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2019 17:07:53
 
Mark2

Posts: 1485
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

Falsetas are not always built from scales. There are many ways a falseta can be constructed. Many come from chord shapes. I think it's a good idea to break down a falseta to learn that for example, it uses harmonic minor, here, melodic minor there, etc.

Learn theory, scale and chord construction, and have at it. There are all sorts of folks who can tell you that this or that falseta is based on the secondary dominant of the IV chord but can't play in compas.

Don't be that guy. Take lessons from a good flamenco guitarist if at all possible.


quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Learn 100 solea falsetas of all types. It's not the scales, IMO, it's the application.

quote:

First of all forget about any scales at all FOR FLAMENCO. To learn forms first learn
1. COMPAS patterns... 2.FALSETAS


Of course I want to learn/copy falsetas from maestros. But I want to understand what I play there.
Without having learnt my first falseta, I think that falsetas are build around scales (correct me if I'm wrong).
So I want to analyse and study falsetas through scales. I do believe, this way I can learn the anatomy of falseta and can create my own falsetas later. Am I right?

quote:

The reason for the different nomenclature is that the natural minor scale will be described under the umbrella of a MINOR key, which might make use of accidentals against the key signature such that several different scales come into use due to changing harmonic progressions. Same reason the Ionian mode is distinguished from the major key it belongs too.... because a key will mix up chords and scales using accidentals that travel away and back towards the tonic.


I didn't understand. I thought Ionian/Aeolian mode and major/minor scale is just the same thing with different names.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2019 18:06:37
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 512
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Mark2

quote:

Falsetas are not always built from scales


Don't understand that. All melodic lines are drawn from scales. They may sound like chords but that's just the selection of notes. All chords are derived from scales too. If you mean the method of constructing a falseta doesn't start with thinking about a scale then I guess historically so, maybe not now.

But, the OP has entered the 'power lifting' schtick of guitar playing....the 'learn everything, everywhere' testosterone bs that pervades guitar playing for the intermediate player (and puts so many off).

If I were you I would learn two scales to death: the harmonic minor scales with roots A and D . Then get used to playing them from their fifth note (E and A) so they sound like E and A scales of some sort (there's a name, but only the exalted are privy to it...:-) ).

Then add G (you're already playing G#) to the A scale and C (you're already playing C#) to the D scale. That should last you a while and cover several palos from your point of view.

When I say learn them to death, I mean learn them scalically up and down; in sequential groups of notes, 3, 4 etc, learn arpeggios drawn from the notes. You'll also be able to hear the falsetas you already know in those scales. You will also be able to hear the additional notes (the chromatic notes that don't belong in the scale) a bit easier. As these scales also exist in different areas of the neck - generally 'up', learn them there too. But it's only two scales.

THEN...sometime in the future...you can add other scales and increase your language.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2019 9:21:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11366
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

So I want to analyse and study falsetas through scales. I do believe, this way I can learn the anatomy of falseta and can create my own falsetas later. Am I right?


Wrong. You will be destined to compose nonsense like so many other wishy washy confused newbies to the genre. “Look at my flamingo music i composed with an E chord and phrygian scale!”.

You won’t be composing any Solea or anything else of any meaning with that attitude. Even Paco de lucia has had to discard a lot of music that is simply bad taste to the genre after recording it and hearing how far off the mark it went. He admitted always going back to the source material to get back on track ie studying the work of the maestros that came before him. There is lots of room for personal creativity on flamenco guitar, but you won’t learn what is the right way until you have devoured a significant amount of traditional material first, there is simply no way around this that will result in anything worthwhile. Unless of course you WANT to settle for doing your own spanishy fakemenco stuff, which a lot of guitar players end up doing. So forget about analysis of the falseta or whatever, just learn how to play them and the compas patterns FIRST, to an acceptable level. Then later on if you want to pull in your music theory knowledge in a tasteful way you can tip toe into that carefully.

Ok that is for FLAMENCO music only. Your theory situation is also in trouble. Ionian is a MODE. The Major scale is the same notes however it is used in a MAJOR KEY. Major and minor KEYS are part of what is called TONAL music, that uses chords or harmonic progressions that function via V-I dominant to tonic resolutions. Accidentals to the key signature are often done via SECONDARY DOMINANTS so the music can travel away then back toward the key center. The actual scales used in tonal music make use of any chromatic note available.

MODES do not use functioning harmonic progressions. They necessarily by definition are STATIC harmonic spaces, with no accidentals introduced. If you played happy birthday melody for example using the typical chords, C-G, G7-C, C7-F, Fm-C-G7-C....you would say that it’s in the key of C major. If you then play happy birthday over top of an F major chord only and never change it, then you can say the melody is the LYDIAN MODE. That is why the CONTEXT matters what verbal description you use for a scale or melody.

For the record modern music might use modal vamps to harmonize a melody, or vice versa, a special scale to colorize a simple chord vamp. Beat it by Michael Jackson for example is a song in E aeolian mode rather than like a song in E minor key. What it would need to be in E minor KEY would be a V-i, or a B major or B7 chord that resolves back to tonic, which the song never actually does. It floats in an unresolved way, however there is ambiguity due to the similarity in the scales. Some music might mix up proper tonal progressions with modal vamping.

Entre dos Aguas by Paco de lucia starts with a flamenco progression in B phrygian key center. The scale starts in A Dorian but resolves to B phrygian using and accidental or change of scale. The next section is in E MINOR and uses a progression that finally resolves back to E minor from the B7 chord, again the scale changes. The final section is a MODAL vamp that uses only the E aeolian mode vamping on two chords, no change of scale.

Despite that theoretical description above, it’s safe to say Paco never thought about it that way, he is simply interpreting a mix of Granaina falsetas via the Rumba compas, mixed with some of what he thinks might be “Jazz style” improvisation. An early experiment (for him, as miles Davis and others already tried this) of such a concept.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2019 12:59:03
 
Piwin

Posts: 2438
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

There are all sorts of folks who can tell you that this or that falseta is based on the secondary dominant of the IV chord but can't play in compas.


quote:

like so many other wishy washy confused newbies to the genre


F&ck! I've been exposed!!


_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2019 13:24:37
 
Mark2

Posts: 1485
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

Yes, I was referring to constructing a falseta. If you find a cool inversion, it might inspire a falseta. That is what I meant by "not all falsetas are built from scales"
Some falsetas are inspired by a dance step. Sure, the melody can be linked to a scale, just as the chord in question is derived from a scale.

I was referring to the creative process. The OP seems to think if he can master the scales that are most commonly used in a given form, he can create falsetas. This is true, but this is just one approach, and probably not the best one for someone new to flamenco.

I agree that learning all the scales in all the positions is a huge task, and also agree that there are some more prevalent in flamenco than others.

I'm one of those folks that think this way of approaching flamenco is a poor way to go about it. Great for jazz though.


quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

quote:

Falsetas are not always built from scales


Don't understand that. All melodic lines are drawn from scales. They may sound like chords but that's just the selection of notes. All chords are derived from scales too. If you mean the method of constructing a falseta doesn't start with thinking about a scale then I guess historically so, maybe not now.

But, the OP has entered the 'power lifting' schtick of guitar playing....the 'learn everything, everywhere' testosterone bs that pervades guitar playing for the intermediate player (and puts so many off).

If I were you I would learn two scales to death: the harmonic minor scales with roots A and D . Then get used to playing them from their fifth note (E and A) so they sound like E and A scales of some sort (there's a name, but only the exalted are privy to it...:-) ).

Then add G (you're already playing G#) to the A scale and C (you're already playing C#) to the D scale. That should last you a while and cover several palos from your point of view.

When I say learn them to death, I mean learn them scalically up and down; in sequential groups of notes, 3, 4 etc, learn arpeggios drawn from the notes. You'll also be able to hear the falsetas you already know in those scales. You will also be able to hear the additional notes (the chromatic notes that don't belong in the scale) a bit easier. As these scales also exist in different areas of the neck - generally 'up', learn them there too. But it's only two scales.

THEN...sometime in the future...you can add other scales and increase your language.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2019 16:32:15
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 512
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Mark2

Hi Mark2.

Well, we agree really.

I think there is value in seeing how a falseta fits in with scales - it provides some anchorage - but I also agree that the most flamenco sounding lines are those that are part of the canon AND that it takes some long experience to make lines that sound idiomatic. Norman Klingman's resource is a great start. But, if you want to woodshed scales then the ones I did were the one's I offered.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2019 19:04:13
 
Mark2

Posts: 1485
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

Yes, I think we do agree.

Thinking about your earlier post(all melodies are derived from scales) I thought of a Paco Serrano falseta for alegrias I learned the other day. It's just one compas-it's on the onlineflamenco site. He plays a three note chord and moves it down the neck chromatically for the first six beats or so, then the last few beats he does an E chord and a little melody to finish. If you consider the highest note, or any of the notes in the chord, the melody, you'd have to say it's based on the chromatic scale.


And for all I know that's what Paco was thinking when he created it ("I'm going to write an alegrias falseta based on the chromatic scale")

But I really don't think that's what he was thinking at all.

I agree about Norman's site it's awesome.






quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

Hi Mark2.

Well, we agree really.

I think there is value in seeing how a falseta fits in with scales - it provides some anchorage - but I also agree that the most flamenco sounding lines are those that are part of the canon AND that it takes some long experience to make lines that sound idiomatic. Norman Klingman's resource is a great start. But, if you want to woodshed scales then the ones I did were the one's I offered.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2019 20:44:16
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 148
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

There is lots of room for personal creativity on flamenco guitar, but you won’t learn what is the right way until you have devoured a significant amount of traditional material first, there is simply no way around this that will result in anything worthwhile.


Mr. Marlow your post changed my view on falsetas. Falsetas are not simple spanish sounding melodic lines. There's a lot more behind it. Spanishy fakemenco stuff. This is something I don't need during my flamenco journey.

As for modal and tonal music, I need some music theory knowledge to fully understand what's going on there.

quote:

If I were you I would learn two scales to death: the harmonic minor scales with roots A and D . Then get used to playing them from their fifth note (E and A) so they sound like E and A scales of some sort (there's a name, but only the exalted are privy to it...:-) ).

Then add G (you're already playing G#) to the A scale and C (you're already playing C#) to the D scale. That should last you a while and cover several palos from your point of view.

When I say learn them to death, I mean learn them scalically up and down; in sequential groups of notes, 3, 4 etc, learn arpeggios drawn from the notes. You'll also be able to hear the falsetas you already know in those scales. You will also be able to hear the additional notes (the chromatic notes that don't belong in the scale) a bit easier. As these scales also exist in different areas of the neck - generally 'up', learn them there too. But it's only two scales.


Thank you for your input. So you're talking about 8 note phrygian dominant scale?

quote:

THEN...sometime in the future...you can add other scales and increase your language.

Sometime in future... Yeah at least 10 years.

@mt1007
Thanks for the youtube link. Mr. Beato knows what he's talking about. I wonder what he's gonna say theory-wise about flamenco. Hey who needs Mr. Beato when we also have Mr. Marlow.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2019 16:17:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11366
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Mr. Marlow your post changed my view on falsetas. Falsetas are not simple spanish sounding melodic lines. There's a lot more behind it. Spanishy fakemenco stuff. This is something I don't need during my flamenco journey.


The perfect example for you just came up on another topic. Look at the scale runs in the sabicas transcription half way down this page. There is your first “scale” to practice. What is it’s name? It doesn’t have one other than “Solea falseta por Arriba”. As you can see there are many accidentals implying various scales and even some literal chromatics are employed. Learning several of these types of phrases your ear and brain will start to understand what you need to do to create your own things that sound very flamenco.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=320771&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

About Mr Beato....a lot of people I have talked to that understand theory very well reduce everything down to what they have experienced in practice. Basically understanding the circle of 5ths covers about everything found in most western music. To truly understand Flamenco harmony I feel a third tier needs to be added to the circle of 5ths specifically for flamenco applications. Mr Beato might be taken aback by things I have to say about it....maybe you can think of his channel as “everything music....except for Flamenco!”

Here is a general description of the harmonic move that is basis of a lot of flamenco forms, although his description is what is used for college level CLASSICAL theory. Keep in mind the V chord is what we think of as TONIC for flamenco phrygian forms. So if you can first understand your circle of 5ths basic stuff, then come to this Aug6 chord practice, you might get a handle on the theory behind flamenco.

So for our por Medio forms, he gives an example at 16:13. Again we flamencos use other versions of the Bb including the one he shows (French), we can call those other ones that add the 5th (F) or the third inversion (G# bass note instead of Bb) etc as SPANISH 6th chords. Why not? And of course you have to get an AXE and hack off the D major chord as in flamenco we are done or at home with the A chord resolution.

The por Arriba move is demonstrated at 18:50...again he does the German move that sometimes suspends the resolution with the I6-4 that we can think of as like an E sus 4 type chord in Solea resolving to G# with E bass note ringing, which is rare BECAUSE it sounds too classical. But the German voicing is typical in flamenco, we can add what he called the Flat 5 for the French chord, however it is truly #11 and I WISH he said that in his examples as well. And AGAIN, get your Axe and chop off the Aminor chord ending we DON”T NEED.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2019 16:41:53
 
kitarist

Posts: 693
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
To truly understand Flamenco harmony I feel a third tier needs to be added to the circle of 5ths specifically for flamenco applications.



I think you mean like this (except filtered down to just minor, major and Phrygian)? Also, I'd put Phrygian outside the Major circle.



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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2019 18:40:46
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 512
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

So you're talking about 8 note phrygian dominant scale?


I guess so. It's certainly Phrygian Dominant (mode V of its related Harmonic minor) but with the added minor 3rd (the G, which is chromatic), added to the major 3rd (the G# - diatonic) which is already there in the mode proper).
You could also play the mode at F, in the F to E cadence - that is F Lydian #9 (mode VI of the A harmonic minor). It still needs the G note though. Other than that, it's all the A harmonic minor notes starting at the appropriate point.

Actually this reminds me of the 8 note Bebop scale in jazz - where a note has been added to enable players to go up and down scales and land on a friendly note rather than a pesky 9th away. (The be-bop dominant scale for example has both minor and major 7ths in an otherwise major scale). Just looking at it now, I see that Allan Holdsworth has his own version of the Bebop Dominant- with a m3, M3, m7 and M7.

So, yes, Phrygian Dominant. But I agree with everyone else, learn falsetas from their source. That also seems appropriately respectful to the masters, the history and the people.

My question - do many falsetas for Soleá, Siguiriyas etc. omit the minor 3rd and allow that enormous m3rd leap? (e.g. E F G#A....) It sounds far more Arabic and I would have expected to hear it more often.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2019 23:03:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11366
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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

I guess so. It's certainly Phrygian Dominant (mode V of its related Harmonic minor) but with the added minor 3rd (the G, which is chromatic), added to the major 3rd (the G# - diatonic) which is already there in the mode proper).
You could also play the mode at F, in the F to E cadence - that is F Lydian #9 (mode VI of the A harmonic minor). It still needs the G note though. Other than that, it's all the A harmonic minor notes starting at the appropriate point.


Talking about flamenco phrygian forms in this manner would be the same as describing every single minor key song or composition as “it’s always Harmonic minor scale except when you add the minor 7th G natural”.... which is completely wrong. If this were true then why doesn’t the key of A minor have a G# as the key signature? My point is it’s NOT phrygian dominant as in the mode, it’s a phrygian KEY that uses accidentals in the exact same manner as it’s relative minor or major key signatures do.

And to Kitarist also NO.... except filtered down to three YES. That circle of 5ths is showing relative modes however the normal circle of 5ths show major and relative minor keys.... the other modes cannot function as keys because they don’t use tonal progressions the way flamenco does.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2019 23:23:46
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 148
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

Mr. Marlow I studied your post and came to the following conclusion. Could you correct me if I'm wrong?

Modal music is harmonically static such that single chord is played throughout a song while melodic lines/solos change. However, they cannot contain any note. Notes from solo must come from parent scale.
I.e. in case of modes from C major, melodic lines contain notes with no sharp and flats.
In case of modes from A major scale, only notes with 3 sharps are used for soloing.

For example, we play G chord throughout a song and solo over it using any note with no flats and sharps. Then the song is played in G mixolydian mode.
Once we use melodic lines with notes with 3 sharps, the song turns out to be in B phrygian mode.

To make this song tonal (in G major key), we change 2 things.
(1) Harmonic changes and progression that resolves to the tonic. (C D -> G).
(2) Melodic lines and solos can be any scale. In musical notation, we use accidentals whenever some weird scales come into use. Since G major key has one sharp, the single symbol # is not meant to be an accidental. But more than one # and any b symbols are accidentals.
But I believe solos cannot be any scale too. They follow changing harmonic progression so that melody and harmony go hand in hand to make musical sense.

Summary

Tonal music uses harmonic changes and resolution to the tonic happens. Solos in tonal music can be any scale as long as we travel back to the tonic and the tune sounds consonant.

Modal music uses single chord. There's no harmonic change and no resolution to the tonic. Solos/melodic lines in modal music cannot be any scale. Only parent scale from which the mode is derived is used.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2019 11:40:27
 
Piwin

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Modal music uses single chord


No. It's just that the chords are "independent". They don't "resolve". So it's more of a neutral sequence of chords and not a "progression". Tonal music uses functional harmony. Modal music does not. Take a V7-I progression and you'll clearly hear the need for resolution, how that V7 wants to resolve into the I. In tonal music, each chord can be described by its function in the overall progression. No such thing in modal music, where everything sort of just floats around, without any specific function.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2019 12:21:18
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 148
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

Modal music uses single chord


No. It's just that the chords are "independent". They don't "resolve". So it's more of a neutral sequence of chords and not a "progression". Tonal music uses functional harmony. Modal music does not. Take a V7-I progression and you'll clearly hear the need for resolution, how that V7 wants to resolve into the I. In tonal music, each chord can be described by its function in the overall progression. No such thing in modal music, where everything sort of just floats around, without any specific function.


This makes sense. I misunderstood then. It's obvious any song has some chord changes. Even rap hip hop songs have this. Tnhx a bunch for the clarification.

So what about soloing over tonal and modal music? This seems to be an integral part for understanding the difference between tonal and modal music.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2019 12:56:43
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

Morning Ricardo.

I know you think that way and up to now I've been happy to keep out of it so people can think about your idea.

My thinking is to account for the notes I see/hear in falsetas and chords. I see nothing wrong with adding a note to a mode and referring to it as a mode with an added note if it properly explains what is happening. Hence my comment about the be-bop scale.

Throughout your analyses you like to refer to, in my view, unecessary and complex renaissance ideas like augmented 6th chords to explain 20th century music. You also obsess about key signatures. This no doubt comes from your classical study - I presume that's what you had. Then there's the idea of a tonic phrygian key. I would call it something else in that case as you're using confused terminology in order to segregate flamenco from all other music.

As I said before, the map is not the territory and the notation is not the music. My analysis works well enough, so I'll leave it up to others to draw what they can from it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2019 13:49:32
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