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RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ???   You are logged in as Guest
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Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What and where is the border of ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

More on Fandango. In 1993 and 1994 there was an interesting exchange on the subject in Soundboard, the journal of the (classical) Guitar Foundation of America.

Richard Bruné hardly needs an introduction here. He's one of the best known luthiers and has an impressive collection of flamenco guitars. If you get into a lawsuit about a guitar, he's probably the person you want on your side, since he's a leading scholar of the instrument. Years ago he was a professional flamenco guitarist at Manolo Caracol's tablao in Mexico City. Also in Mexico he was an Anthropology student at the Universidad de las Americas. Interviewing an Otomi Indian informant, Bruné was told about the Otomi phrase pfan dan go. It means a religious ceremony and the dance associated with it. Here's Brune's letter.

https://tinyurl.com/yynuman8

This prompted a reply by Richard Pinnell:

https://tinyurl.com/yxdrbjb4
https://tinyurl.com/y6y8qnps
https://tinyurl.com/y3dejs35

which in turn engendered a reply by Bruné, and another response by Pinnell

https://tinyurl.com/y2qft3nj
https://tinyurl.com/y24fohov
https://tinyurl.com/y3l7mdc7
https://tinyurl.com/y3tq5red
https://tinyurl.com/y3yj473g

Sorry for the string of links. The 1993 and 1994 back issues of Soundboard are not yet available on the GFA web site. Bruné kindly provided the .jpgs. He says that despite the "dust up" on Soundboard, he and Pinnell are now friends.

RNJ


“High-jazz”??? Miles Davis and Coltrane picked up on the Eastern vibe in the 60’s.... coincidence? I think not!!!


These historical analysis of pre-recording tech music is a bigger joke than the analysis done of music actually recorded today

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2019 18:02:54
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: What and where is the border of ... (in reply to Ricardo) 
In the Soundboard discussion Bruné writes, "A few attempts have been made to connect flamenco with Indian and other Asian subcontinent musical cultures, but in the absence of specific musical/cultural/historical connections, this is considered pure speculation by serious musicologists and flamencologists. I consider myself to be neither. In fact, the flamenco circles in which I have traveled consider these terms to be insults."

I thought Bruné's discovery of the Otomi Indian phrase pfan dan go was interesting, in light of early 18th century documents which claim an American origin for fandango. Bruné observes that we can't know what the Otomi music sounded like.

Futhermore we can only hear conjectured interpretations of early 18th century notated pieces like Santiago de Murcia, Boccherini, Scarlatti, et al. However we can accurately analyze the harmony and meter of these examples.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2019 21:21:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What and where is the border of ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
quote:

Futhermore we can only hear conjectured interpretations of early 18th century notated pieces like Santiago de Murcia, Boccherini, Scarlatti, et al. However we can accurately analyze the harmony and meter of these examples.


Exactly. These pieces are basically repeating the progression i-VI-iv-V, over and over, and nothing in flamenco does such a specific thing. Tangos comes closest with VI-VII-iv-V repeating, but it’s not all the time. One could argue that the two measure see-saw of a secondary harmony that resolves to the V chord, and the fact some, not all, of the baroque Fandangos end the final chord on V not i, as an early influence on all the flamenco forms in terms of how the guitar makes compas statements. Also I doubt any of the baroque composers invented that idea, but rather are borrowing it from the popular or folk music practice. But the thing that really interests Bruné and myself would be more about the actual music when it gets going, meaning the cante and it’s accompaniment. The only one I noticed so far that goes anywhere musically is the Soler fandango that does V7/VI->VI for several phrases. This would be the equivalent of a Fandango de Huelva that only does the opening compas, then the second line of the copla, and that’s the whole form . It’s not a stretch to imagine those baroque composers were trying to do a fandango proper but missing out on the structure and just groping at the superficialities.... not unlike ALL the fakemenco of today!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 14:23:11
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