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Did Gerundino really make his guitars from Mid 90's up until his passing?   You are logged in as Guest
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CA_Sevilla01

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Feb. 11 2017
 

Did Gerundino really make his guitar... 

Hey guys,

Just want to know if Gerundino did build his guitars from 1994 up until his passing in 2006. I heard the 10 years before his death, he was very sick and could not have possible have build anything and had "Help" from a relative or a friend? any ways guys, just want to know if this is true? He did retire from guitar making in 1999 but i still see some Gerundino's from 2000 and up to 2015 and then His Son started making them now labeled Gerundino Hijo. I did hear also that he did officially retire in 1997 according to his close friends so anything after 1997 is not a legit Gerundino but may be made by his brother Eladio or Juan Miguel Gonzales? let me know k guys?

The reason why i also ask is because i have a friend that wants to trade me a 1996 Gerundino in really good condition for a Conde Classical AC23 that i have. From the Picture's and sound it looks to be a real Gerundino...even the rosette looks legit. Would this be a good trade guys's? Can i get a little help from all of you : ) thanks


I can be reached here also

Mrangel626@yahoo.com

Mark R
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2019 5:11:02
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1465
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

When Gerundino stopped building, he had some unfinished guitars that where finished by Juan Miguel Gonzales.

They are not stamped in the back of the headstock. I have seen some guitars from 2000 and even 2002, they are very discutable.
Look for the stamped print (with no ink) at the back of the headstock. Saying “ Gerundino Almeria”

Gerundino used this stamp after 1973.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2019 8:06:07
 
Echi

 

Posts: 671
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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

I have played and inspected a good number of guitars made by Gerundino.
I owned both what you call a real Gerundino, a ‘98 Gerundino and an Eladio. All good guitars but the old Gerundino was the best one.
I have to say also that my ‘98 Gerundino was a good sounding guitar but for sure not made by our man: it was probably better made and varnished, more sturdy and yet less resonant. The top thickness was around 2.6 mm.
The Eladio was very good quality both in woods and guitar making but I guess much similar to the ‘98 guitar than the old Gerundino.

There are speculations about the real maker of the latter Gerundinas as for Conde and other makers. This is mainly due to the differences in the guitar making and by the fact that in 98 the market saw a lot of Gerundinas quite standard made.
There are pictures of Gerundino in his last years which can say more than many words..
A very respected Spanish guitarist /dealer told me that the latter Gerundino are “guitarras de fabrica” but I have no evidence than that.
After many research I arrived to the conclusion that his brother Eladio (a merchant of lutherie wood) was behind the latter production, through the help of Gonzales and some local luthiers.

In my opinion Gerundino was consistent in the seventhies and more or less in the eighties with a certain decline from ‘85 on, when his wife died and he started having a serious problem with drinking.
If you want to post here or send me the pictures of the guitar I can guess more about it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2019 9:24:03
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 672
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

I was told by a dealer in Spain in 1992 that Gerundino was no longer making guitars. 90’s guitars often don’t sell for as much as earlier guitars. Of course, if you are interested only in quality, play and decide what it is worth to you. Just be aware of possible resale issues.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2019 10:58:34
 
mt1007

Posts: 73
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

Speaking with an honest reputable dealer from Germany, he stated that even his early 80's guitars were not all built by him. This dealer knew him well, and would find him sometimes laying face down in his shop from all the alcohol Gerundino would drink. Very sad situation for Gerundino…
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2019 17:32:06
 
Echi

 

Posts: 671
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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

Modesto Borreguero, the third employee of Manuel Ramirez, with people of the stature of Santos and Domingo Esteso, didn’t have fortune as self employed luthier for the same alcool problem.

The last post possibly needs of some clarifications: the man was still working well in the eighties when his wife was alive and his brother Eladio Kept an eye on him. Even then he used to have a problem with drinking but someone kept him in track.
It’s true also that he used to be helped by some makers (the same very good ones working for Eladio btw) but the quality of the final guitars was very high and in some cases even better.
Paco Pena preferred a Gerundina from 83 and it’s not to be forgotten that Gerundino won his Lutherie prize later in the eighties.

The things for Gerundino got worst later on and particularly in the nineties when he was alo hospitalised.
Anyway it’s the opinion of many that a good Gerundina is in the same league of a Reyes.
Tomatito and Paco owned a Gerundina in their collection, Vicente started his career with a Gerundina as well and Gerardo still keep an Eladio, to mention just a few.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2019 19:26:07
 
mt1007

Posts: 73
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

Echi,

I think you summed it up just right. Gerundino got help from his wife, brother and other makers to finish some of his builds. They kept him on track, though he was hitting the bottle hard. So I don't think any clarifications are in order. At this point it's all hearsay, so I would take it with a grain of salt when it comes to Gerundino.

I got a 62 Gerundino and it kicks ass. I've played his 70's and 80's guitars. Some I liked a lot more than others. You do notice some cosmetic and build discrepancy's so who built what I guess we will never truly know.

Bottom line, if it sounds good and has good play-ability then there is nothing to discuss. Now if you want to invest for resale, then it gets tricky. Hence this discussion. 70's Gerundino get the most money, Early 80's 2nd place, then 60's, etc....

my 2 cents...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2019 20:50:07
 
CA_Sevilla01

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Feb. 11 2017
 

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

Thanks for the Reply guys, this definitely clarifies my suspicion. I did investigate even further here in the Foro - Forum and did some google searches and found that after 1997 is when relatives of Gerundino say he had stopped building guitars but many websites claimed that in 1999 is when he officially stopped.

I did speak to Danzeff from Danzeff guitars in CA and he clarified to me that anything in the Mid 90's and up was a "Gray -Area " and no one really knows who might have been building them. He did mention also that his brother Eladio may have been the one building Gerundinos up to late 90s’s and before his death. Dan did mention to me that he has some close friends who visited Gerundino’s shop in Spain during 1995 and according to his friends he was in really bad shape. He needed assistance just walking down some stairs because he was so ill during that point and there was just no way that Gerundino was physically able to construct any guitars. There are other close relatives of Gerundino that say "Officially 1997" was the last year he did build anything and anything after that is not a true Gerundino. When his wife passed away in 1996, it really took a toll on him and his work really stopped shortly after that.

I also did speak to a guitar sales man form Guitar Salon International in Santa Monica CA and they personally stay away from any Gerundino's from the late 90's. They did also say that a good guitar is a good guitar despite who may have built it and wanted me to bring in the instrument so they can see for themselves if it really is a true Gerundino. Apparently there is a great distinction from the early Master build Gerundino and the later ones. Despite what they told me I did look up some archive records in their store and they did at on several occasions have Gerundino's from all the way up to 1998 but nothing past that. There is even one Video with Grisha Goryachef playing a 1997 Gerundino Negra. Let me know what you think of the 97's Gerundinos in this video.



Here is another Video of Kai Narezo playing a 1997 Blanca




The guitar clerk did also say, that some of the new Gerundinos being produced by his son are really good!

One more thing guys...There is more sketchy ness or mystery in terms of who build Conde guitars? Really? why do you guys say this? Is it just as bad as who built the Gerundino's or worse?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2019 3:26:46
 
CA_Sevilla01

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Feb. 11 2017
 

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

Hey guys, attached is the Picture's of the 1997 Gerundino i was talking about. Take a goo d look at it and let me know if you think it was made by someone other than Gerundino. I am new to Gerundino guitar and never seen one or played one in person but really wish it was legit, heard soo many great things about this legendary guitar builder!!!

Attachment (3)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2019 3:48:28
 
Echi

 

Posts: 671
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

Can you take a picture of headstock and heel?
I owned a 98 Gerundino guitar for 10 years and it was a guitar in the same league of a Sanchis Carpio and a recent Conde Gravina (which I used to have at the time and compare with).
The Gerundino had a rounder, softer tone, with harder pulsacion and quite loud. The tone was the same as the guitar played by Grisha but it wasn’t a master guitar.
I sold it a couple of years ago (and even put the ad in this foro).
The old Gerundinas are different guitars.

In the foro there are a lot of threads about Conde.
Even there it depends on years, shops and eventually the specific guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2019 7:39:36
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1465
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

quote:

Look for the stamped print (with no ink) at the back of the headstock. Saying “ Gerundino Almeria”

Gerundino used this stamp after 1973.


And? Is the stamp there?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2019 7:50:39
 
Echi

 

Posts: 671
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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

In advance, sorry to keep writing here.
Before 73 Gerundino used the stamp of a “g” (same dimension and shape of the stamp now used by Felipe Conde), later on he used an egg shaped stamp pressed (not burned) in the Wood behind the headstock.
Unfortunately this doesn’t give any evidence as the same stamp it is used also in the batch of the 97 and 98 guitars.
Better evidences are a different stamp in the heel lock, a different shape of the heelblock itself and the shape of the linings inside the box.
Btw the guitars of Gerundino hijo are actually very good as those of other luthiers who worked with Gerundino or Eladio.
Is it not better to go for one of the latter guitars?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2019 9:38:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11365
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

quote:

ORIGINAL: CA_Sevilla01

Hey guys, attached is the Picture's of the 1997 Gerundino i was talking about. Take a goo d look at it and let me know if you think it was made by someone other than Gerundino. I am new to Gerundino guitar and never seen one or played one in person but really wish it was legit, heard soo many great things about this legendary guitar builder!!!


The rosette is a generic one used by Conde as well, same one on a couple of PDL’s guitars. A simple question would be whether or not Gerundino would do that or not.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2019 13:39:07
 
Echi

 

Posts: 671
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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

He stopped hand making his rosettes at some stage in the eighties.
Good choice when you get old.
Even the famous cross Reyes rosette is made in Iapan copying the motif of an original Reyes Rosette of the sixties.

In the eighties Gerundino used 4 or 5 models of pre-made rosettes of good quality (made in Germany) also seen in other luthier guitars.
The Rosette of this “97 guitar is instead a cheap rosette sold by Barber and Madinter and seen in more recent gerundinas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2019 14:37:18
 
CA_Sevilla01

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Feb. 11 2017
 

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

Echi

Yeah i believe the guy said it did have a stamp in the back and he did admit to pretty much everything you guys are saying here, seems like he is honest but not sure if i should trade my Conde AC 23 Mint classical for a fake Gerundino. I am not looking to buy to re sell but always wanted a legit Gerundino to keep for many years.

I will provide pictures of the stamp guys and if you guys have more info please let me know k? i love your honest opinions and flamenco Luther expertise....just learned a lot here from you guys
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2019 1:11:53
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1465
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

I remember a story from Eric Vaarzon Morel, a flamenco guitarist from Holland.
He told me he visited Gerundino in 2000, he had still some guitars to sell.

Also, it is known, that Juan Miguel Gonzales helped Gerundino finishing a few guitars, Gonzalez “atmitted” it in an interview “flamencoguru” alias Errol Putigna made.

So, most likely, Gerundino had some unfinished guitars after 1997, and had them finished by others. Put a label in, signed and stamped it.

At least, you know more or less what you buy or not.

If you want a Gerundino not for resale, go for an old one. It is a totally different guitar than the newer Gerundino’s.
The old ones are extremely dry and pecussive, the newer ones are bigger and heavier, so long sustain less percussive.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2019 9:10:51
 
CA_Sevilla01

 

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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to gerundino63

So even in 2000, he still was making instruments? he apparently retired in 97 and then officially in 99 but it all seems very vague with his situation. In 95 he was very ill and could not even walk but apparently he got better.

If Juan Miguel Gonzales helped build these instruments then they must be even "Better" ? Gonzales makes some incredible guitars correct? he has his own line of instruments. I have never played one or held one but i have seen videos of his instruments on youtube and my goodness they are good!! So if Gonzales did have a hand in the laters ones, would it be better to buy a later one? for resale purposes they won't command the high dollar price tag but a very good instrument none the less?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2019 19:48:55
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1465
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From: The Netherlands

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

No, in 2000 he was still selling instruments.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2019 19:51:36
 
CA_Sevilla01

 

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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to gerundino63

He was still selling them? So he did still make them until 2000 ? i am confused
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2019 7:55:33
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1465
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

No, he had some stock unfinished guitars.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2019 10:04:24
 
CA_Sevilla01

 

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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to gerundino63

So are the new Gerundino's Mid to late 90's or early 2000's worth buying? are they worth the price tag? are they any good or should someone just pass the up all together? i believe the price for these are 3k - 5k max?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2019 20:36:37
 
Echi

 

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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

Sorry to say it, but I heard thousand of times in Spain the story of the unfinished guitars.
Juliana Conde kept selling for years the last unfinished guitars of Faustino.. and you can read the same story since the times of the widow of Santos Hernandez (seriously). The widows of famous guitar makers have been selling last guitars for ages.
When I used to own my 98 Gerundino I wanted to convince myself it could have been made by our man and I did some researches till I realised this could had neverbeen the case.
I read the interview of Gonzales, but other people told a different version of the story which I find more convincing.
It’s well known that Eladio was one of the bigger sellers of lutherie woods in Spain. He traded with many luthiers and often he could receive a finished guitar as part of the payment for the woods. Later on he involved some of them to work some of his tonewoods either to make parts of guitars or even to make whole guitars.
He also had them making something for Gerundino at times, particularly when he was less productive.
in this case the boss was Eladio, not Gerundino.
Gerundino was often in debt with his brother Eladio for the woods and had to come to terms with him.
Among these luthiers there was Gonzales Abad, Juan Miguel’s dad and later on Juan Miguel.
It happened these people could work for Gerundino but just indirectly.

When he was old and sick some of his relatives made a deal by trading the woods of Eladio to “someone” to have back some guitars made with the plantilla and bracing of Gerundino and labelled Gerundino.
This is what we know.
My personal idea - but here this is me and I have no proofs, just hearsay - is for the 5 luthiers helping Gerundino and Eladio.
The worst hypothesis in my mind (here is pure speculation though) is that Gonzales may have worked together with Carrillo as later he would do with the guitars branded Tomatito.

Gerundino Hijo learned lutherie from one of the guys who helped his dad. He is very good luthier working hand made.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2019 0:33:49
 
CA_Sevilla01

 

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Joined: Feb. 11 2017
 

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to Echi

thats interesting to learn that not just Gerundino has had a Sketchy guitar building past. Fuastino conde i'd figured got the help from Mariano and Felipe ( maybe they where kids at the time? ) to help build the guitars but who knows!

As for the 90's Gerundino's, just no one really knows who built them. We all have very good accurate guesses and for sure some people have come out ( Gonzales ) and admitted that they indeed did help build some Gerundino guitars. As i heard before in 95, from various accounts, Gerundino was just too sick to build anything at that point. They must still be good guitars despite not Gerundino that built them. My guitar teacher recored and played live on a post 2000 Gerundino and he absolutely loved it, said it was a very nice instrument.

Are some of the Gonzales Gerundino's any good though? he does produce his own line of instrument and they sound very good. I have only heard them on YouTube but have never held one or played one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2019 2:21:50
 
tk

Posts: 479
Joined: Jun. 15 2006
 

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to Echi

quote:

The last post possibly needs of some clarifications: the man was still working well in the eighties when his wife was alive and his brother Eladio Kept an eye on him. Even then he used to have a problem with drinking but someone kept him in track.
It’s true also that he used to be helped by some makers (the same very good ones working for Eladio btw) but the quality of the final guitars was very high and in some cases even better.
Paco Pena preferred a Gerundina from 83 and it’s not to be forgotten that Gerundino won his Lutherie prize later in the eighties.


I am not surprised about the 80s Gerundinos being good. I owned several Gerudninos from the 70s but I played 3 from the 80s and I believe they offer a bit more than the 70s. The 70s are very pure, dry flamenco sounding guitars. Wit the 80s, Gerundino added more sound to his guitar while maintaining the flamenco purity in them. Paco Pena played 70s Gerundino but in the last decade he uses 80s Gerundino (as you say).

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2019 18:07:39
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to tk

quote:

The 70s are very pure, dry flamenco sounding guitars.



I had the opportunity to copy a 1969 Gerundino from a friend of mine who bought it from Paco Del Gastor, during his guitar studies in Moron at Don Pohren's finca, in the 70's.

I built 5-6 copies and they all turned out well. The symmetry of the box was very close to a Ramirez style, not the enlarged box at a later date. And what I remember is that they made good studio recordings.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 24 2019 15:19:32
 
gerundino63

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From: The Netherlands

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I still have a Gerundino from 1967. Very dry and percussive. And with a extreme good projection.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 24 2019 16:45:53
 
Echi

 

Posts: 671
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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to CA_Sevilla01

quote:

The 70s are very pure, dry flamenco sounding guitars. With the 80s, Gerundino added more sound to his guitar while maintaining the flamenco purity in them

I think you’re right. The old Gerundinas are more old style sounding while the guitars of the eighties have a bigger sound, with more sustain and a softer tone.
I have tried one of the ‘67 and I also have a plan of a Gerundina of the same time: the top is 2.5 mm in the centre. A little Ramirez like, as said by Tom.
There are fans of the guitars of the sixties, seventies and eighties as for Conde or other makers.
I for one prefer the spruce topped Gerundinas of the eighties (and some of the sixties). At times some cedar topped guitar may miss some bite. But this is just me.

Btw, At the end it’s not the same with the other makers?
I have currently with me a 74 and a 2001 Jose’ L. Bellido and while they have the same kind of tone, the latter has a bigger sound etc. but overall less purity and less projection.
I tried an old Reyes - very similar to the 74 Bellido - and a new one and in my understanding the evolution could be the same for Reyes. You add something on une sie and you loose something else.
Here I cannot speak with certainty though as the late Reyes I tried was nothing special: either it was me or it was an unfortunate guitar.

I would like to add that it also depends on the specific guitar you try as a guitar maker will always have a certain level of inconsistency.
I currently prefer an 86 spruce topped Ramirez over all my guitars and I can say that I was never a fan of the brand nor I thought I would. The same for Conde. Never say never in life.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2019 11:45:24
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2681
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to Echi

...and guitars change over their lifetimes.

I have mentioned before a '73 Conde spruce blanca which was bought new by a friend. His daughter was at university in Madrid. She recruited a well known classical pro, whose name I forget, to go with her and pick out a guitar for her father.

When it arrived in Austin, it was dead as a doornail. It had all the tone and volume of a solid piece of yellow pine timber. I felt sorry for my friend, but said nothing.

To my surprise, after two or three years the Conde was one of the few guitars, perhaps the only one, that I preferred to my '67 Ramirez blanca at the time. I tried to buy it more than once, without any hint of success.

I have no idea why the guitar was so bad for the first few years, nor why it was so good later in its life.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2019 18:04:17
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

To my surprise, after two or three years the Conde was one of the few guitars, perhaps the only one, that I preferred to my '67 Ramirez blanca at the time. I tried to buy it more than once, without any hint of success.


The same thing happened to a 1968 Conde replica I built. It was good when it left my shop but after being played quite a few months it was one of the best flamenco styled guitars my client owned.

I'm sure the pattern/design had something to do with it.

The original guitar was owned by Ramon, Paco's Lucia's brother.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2019 18:58:54
 
tk

Posts: 479
Joined: Jun. 15 2006
 

RE: Did Gerundino really make his gu... (in reply to Echi

quote:

I for one prefer the spruce topped Gerundinas of the eighties (and some of the sixties). At times some cedar topped guitar may miss some bite. But this is just me.


Same here, luckily I was able to find one lately. As you said, huge sound and clarity and great flamenco flavor (for my taste).

TK

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2019 21:32:34
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