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RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study....   You are logged in as Guest
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Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2588
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to kitarist

People who know me would be quick to inform you I do not lack self confidence. But when it came to flamenco I was spared the embarrassment of broadcasting from the summit of Mount Stupid. Starting to learn in my early 20s there were always people around who knew more about the arte, and who were much better guitar players. Like most Americans attracted to flamenco guitar I skipped over any tracks on an LP which contained cante. I found it a little more tolerable in live performance, but just a little.

These days I play guitar mainly for my own amusement and seldom listen to any flamenco recordings except cante.

The young woman in the blog seems to me like a competent musician who set out to learn something about flamenco, a genre about which she admits complete ignorance at first. She doesn’t seem to intend to teach as an expert, but only to recount her experience so far. She readily admits she still has a lot to learn, maybe even more important material than she has yet encountered.

What’s the point? I’m not sure.

One possibility is that professionally trained musicians are taught that you haven’t mastered something until you perform it. She is a long way from mastering flamenco. I doubt that is even her objective. Maybe this is sort of an in-progress recital of her inquiry.

Another possibility is to encourage other “classically” trained musicians to explore different genres. I was inclined to do so as a teenager, despite moderate disapproval from my classical teachers. Following that inclination has greatly enriched my musical experience, especially a 65-year love affair with flamenco.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2019 18:00:39
 
kitarist

Posts: 541
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
[...]

What’s the point? I’m not sure.

One possibility is that professionally trained musicians are taught that you haven’t mastered something until you perform it. She is a long way from mastering flamenco. I doubt that is even her objective. Maybe this is sort of an in-progress recital of her inquiry.

Another possibility is to encourage other “classically” trained musicians to explore different genres. I was inclined to do so as a teenager, despite moderate disapproval from my classical teachers. Following that inclination has greatly enriched my musical experience, especially a 65-year love affair with flamenco.

RNJ


Another possibility is the most boring one - that it is just a "building my brand" exercise - producing new content (regardless of what that is) to continue building up social media presence.

Hopefully her main driver was to provide encouragement to other classical musicians, though.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2019 20:53:50
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 450
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I don't see it that way
I don't either. The problem is that there are plenty of teachers who would use their expertise to intimidate. I don't think she had any didactic intentions whatsoever beyond maybe waking up her peers to what is also out there and diarising her journey in brief. However, judging by her skills, she certainly knows something of that, despite not having heard funk (really?) until she did that broadcast. Conservatories' bad I'd say.

I haven't yet bothered with non guitar instrumentation but can't help but feel that a piano doing a great job at producing a credible flamenco sound would be better off being a guitar. If not, then I doubt I could refer to the music as 'flamenco'.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2019 20:59:32
 
Mark2

Posts: 1469
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to El Burdo

I feel that way about guitarists who do nothing but two handed tapping, in the style of Stanley Jordan. Why don't they just play the piano? It's a novelty to play the guitar that way, but I think if the same music was played on piano, it would be unremarkable at best.


quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo



I haven't yet bothered with non guitar instrumentation but can't help but feel that a piano doing a great job at producing a credible flamenco sound would be better off being a guitar. If not, then I doubt I could refer to the music as 'flamenco'.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2019 22:00:28
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 450
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

All of which leads me to the inevitable interview with Ringo Starr who, when challenged as to why in one piece (recorded at Abbey Road with George Martin) the piano was made to sound like a guitar replied it was because the guitars had been made to sound like pianos.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2019 22:54:11
 
szvarga

 

Posts: 48
Joined: Mar. 11 2019
 

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I feel that way about guitarists who do nothing but two handed tapping, in the style of Stanley Jordan. Why don't they just play the piano? It's a novelty to play the guitar that way, but I think if the same music was played on piano, it would be unremarkable at best.


Good point. I feel strongly, the proper way to play guitar is play it with flamenco techniques.
As I see, acoustic players tries to sound right (or both) hand(s) of a piano player. Electric players tries to simulate violin, or other strings. Others tries to use as a percussion.

But, a guitar is not an instrument of independent polyphony like a piano, nor a melody instrument close abilities to human singing, and not a drum set. And still a little both of them. I feel it is its speciality.
And only the flamenco way allows to play in its own special way, where it can be a mix of little bit of polyphonic, a little bit of melodic, and a little bit of rhythmic.

And the reverse is equally true: if you try to play flamenco on piano, you will loose the melodic and the rhythmic characteristics. On strings, loose the polyphony with rhythmics, and on percussions, all the melodic and the polyphonic side lost.

The moment was a revelation for me, when I realized, the guitar and the flamenco are one blood, one body, one soul. And if I want to play the guitar, I have to play it on the flamenco way. And forget everything else.

Sz
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2019 18:14:26
 
Brendan

Posts: 165
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to El Burdo

She is clear that she doesn’t take herself to have mastered the art, and the face she pulls at the end of the improvised noodle is quite telling. She is hopping about looking for ingredients from here and there to add to her musical larder. We may suspect that gathering the superficial features of many genres is going to end with her making herring and banana tacos on a bed of feta salad marinaded in Thai fish sauce, but that is her problem. For me, none of her noodles sound like the source material, it all sounds like the music on corporate training videos, but as always there are no cops to call.

Richard is right, of course, there is no short-cut round the job of learning the language properly. Yo-yo Ma made a bluegrass record called Goat Rodeo, but he didn’t compose any of the music. He left that to native speakers, though he could easily have made superficially bluegrassy noises.

Still though, there are a few general pointers that she could have understood. For e.g., flamenco melodies mostly go on journeys away from and back to the root note, and they move by small steps, rarely using any interval bigger than a major third. You quite often get the same little journey repeated and then a similar journey with a bit of extra interest that takes twice as long. Also, flamencos like semi-tone intervals in chords. While jazz voicings tend to smooth out dissonances, flamenco chords play them up, e.g. x-4-7-3-5-0 compared with say x-0-5-6-5-6. Her melodic ideas have large leaps and her chords don’t have the tight little clusters of notes that create the flamenco flavour.

So my question was, are there more pointers like these which, while they do not substitute for a proper education, might have helped? Some of the ideas about her piano sound, for e.g.. it lacks the attack and fast fade that give flamenco its rhythmic snap. On the other hand, Chano Dominguez.

Misspelling people’s names is very bad. Also, the digestion metaphor doesn’t say anything good about the product so I would have advised against it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2019 12:40:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11074
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to rasqeo77

quote:

What was wrong about what was said about the 12-beat compás and the Phrygian mode? Don’t flamenco guitar methods also cover these? Not trying to be argumentative - I genuinely want to understand what was factually wrong as I’m not an advanced player.


I have never advocated any of the popular flamenco “method” books for the same reasons, again instead have spent countless hours dispelling the misconceptions they proliferate to the masses. Regarding 12’s, my thoughts are too numerous to dig up but here is a recent discussion with dance class examples that get to the heart of the issues:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=317280&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

As far as Phrygian MODE explanations and confusions, my posts in this thread seem to cover my thoughts on it:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=243506&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=

At least the girl presenting her learning journey did not add to the ever going debates about guitar technique, picado, nails, modern vs old school, etc, etc. She wants to scrape the surface to simply spice up her own compositions....I get it all too well. Why not focus on other similar music that has already traveled that path....the best of which being the Guitar Trio???

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2019 20:32:11
 
joselito_fletan

 

Posts: 153
Joined: Jan. 24 2017
 

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to Brendan

quote:

So what is she missing, given that she has tried to get her head around it and has the education and fingers?


A Glastonbooty

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2019 2:30:09
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1468
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to joselito_fletan

Lads were here to discuss flamenco, not post saucy pics.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2019 19:59:12
 
joselito_fletan

 

Posts: 153
Joined: Jan. 24 2017
 

RE: After SEVERAL MONTHS of study.... (in reply to henrym3483

I thought that was as Flamenco as it gets lol, your platform your rules, no skin off my back :o)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2019 3:32:51
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