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RE: Flamenco: no es un show!   You are logged in as Guest
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RobF

Posts: 233
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Spoken like a member of one of the medieval European guilds,

Hi Bill,
I included that quote in support of what El Burdo was saying and also to help refute the notion that the show aspect of flamenco somehow serves to dilute its purity. In hindsight, I wish I hadn’t posted it as I also don’t like the implication that quality or creativity solely lies within the domain of the professional. I think that concept is demonstrably untrue.

I do think the influence of the guild is still present in Europe, however. As a North American, whose approach to craftsmanship has been largely defined by those who immigrated in rejection of the guild system or were forced out because of it, I’m not comfortable with the concept and find it to be mildly offensive. I understand and accept that there may be European craftsmen who will not agree and I’m fine with that. But I wholeheartedly reject any insinuation that the product of those not following an exclusionary model is necessarily inferior.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 18:04:43
 
JasonM

Posts: 895
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to RobF

Well I thought it was an interesting quote anyway.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 18:48:01
 
Escribano

Posts: 5862
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to RobF

quote:

I’m not comfortable with the concept and find it to be mildly offensive


The City of London was built on guilds (or liveries) and derived from the Catholic religion in the middle ages. They still play an important, though symbolic, role.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livery_company

Not sure there is anything particularly offensive about them. Exclusionary for sure. Do you have any references that emigrants to the US were forced into emigration because of them?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 19:48:44
 
RobF

Posts: 233
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Escribano

Hi Simon, it’s the exclusionary or secretive aspects of the guild culture that at times can be off-putting to me.

I think this might simply be a cultural difference that may not be as noticeable to a European as it would be to a North American. On the other side of the token, some European craftsmen might feel North Americans are too “loose” or perhaps a little undisciplined in their methods. Again, a trait that would not be noticed or even considered by someone from North America.

For example, the use of the term “Master” appears to be quite common and accepted in Europe to describe a teacher or someone who is proficient at their craft. It’s usage likely originated with the guilds. In North America, while it is acceptable to describe someone else in such a manner, it generally would be considered bad form to attach the title to oneself. I’m pretty sure that’s not the case in Europe, where the word has a slightly different meaning.

The founder of the CF Martin guitar company would be an example of a person who emigrated due to the restrictions placed on him by the guilds.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 20:18:19
 
Escribano

Posts: 5862
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to RobF

quote:

The founder of the CF Martin guitar company would be an example of a person who emigrated due to the restrictions placed on him by the guilds.


Interesting, thanks for that. It was a while ago and apparently, he didn't have to emigrate.

I can only find one specific guild of lutherie nowadays and it is in the USA. It would not be particularly cool to refer to oneself as a master here, either.

To claim that guilds have limited creative pursuit in Europe since the middle ages is a leap too far for me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 20:54:02
 
RobF

Posts: 233
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Escribano

quote:

To claim that guilds limited creative pursuits in Europe since the middle ages is a leap too far for me.


Ummm, I don’t think I suggested that or made any such claim, certainly if I somehow implied it it wasn’t intentional.

I’d have to reread the Martin history, but the impression I’ve held is that his choice was either to remain in a furniture making guild and not be permitted to make or sell certain instruments or to go elsewhere where he could have the freedom to do as he chose. But I’d have to verify that, so a grain of salt may be in order.

I’m not trying to start some kind of cultural war here and I’m not placing a value judgement on anything. I’m just saying that due our differing histories, North Americans and Europeans don’t necessarily perceive things in the same manner. There’s no right or wrong in this, IMO.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 21:12:45
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2576
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

I can only find one specific guild of lutherie nowadays and it is in the USA. It would not be particularly cool to refer to oneself as a master here, either.



I know four members of the Guild of American Luthiers fairly well, including one of the founders. They are all well known and successful in their trade.

The ethic of the American Guild is not exclusionary, in fact just the opposite. Among its founding principles were the sharing of knowledge and promotion of the craft.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 21:38:27
 
RobF

Posts: 233
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Escribano

At any rate, throughout this thread I’ve tried to stick to restating my original opinion about the Granada graffiti artist and not stray into the almost overwhelmingly complex issue of modern day tourism.

I went so far as to message a friend of mine last night and ask about it. I included a picture of the graffiti. He was born and raised in Sacromente, still lives in the Albaicín, and his family has been professionally involved with flamenco there for generations. Over the years, I’ve never ever caught a whiff of anti-tourist sentiment from him. He just called me back a few minutes ago to say his phone had been down for the past day because he had forgot to pay his bill, and by the way, WTF was I talking about??

I told him to forget about it and I’d ask him in person the next time I overrun the place, hopefully in a couple of months time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 21:53:04
 
zavaletas

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Dec. 25 2004
 

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to RobF

Guilds in Spain at least survived into the beginning of the 19th century, but then fell apart under market pressures and became much more informal. In the 18th century, a to become guild member one had to pass an examine judged by a master luthier, generally involving construction of a variety of stringed instruments. A bit of this culture survived into the 20th century in shop shops. At Ramirez under Jose III, for example, craftsmen had to build a guitar that met Jose's standards before becoming one of his oficiales who built his concert models.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 21:59:30
 
Escribano

Posts: 5862
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

The ethic of the American Guild is not exclusionary, in fact just the opposite


Clearly, as you just have to pay to join but I thought it a little ironic considering the discussion.

The guilds I speak of went very deep; royal decrees (like patents), patronage, social support, protectionism and monopolies (hence exclusionary), apprenticeships and worship.

Journeymen and large enterprise killed them off a long time ago in the UK and throughout Europe by the 19th century.

However, guilds in the US movie business have extraordinary powers.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 22:01:13
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2576
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrstwinkle

"All professions are conspiracies against the laity."

George Bernard Shaw


The Englishman John Duarte wrote a little book called, "Segovia as I Knew Him."

Duarte said Segovia had a lively sense of humor, but he never heard the Maestro tell a story where he was the butt of the joke.

One day Segovia complained to Duarte about all the bad guitarists who insisted upon playing for him when he came into town for a concert. Duarte pointed out that these people were Segovia's fans, and he should appreciate their support.

Segovia replied, "You are right, Duarte. Without the sinners there would be no need for the Pope."

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2019 22:03:37
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2576
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
You could visit Amalfi and sit outside a cafe without getting your feet stamped on when the boats came in.


The last time we were in Amalfi was 7 years ago. We didn't get stamped on, but we weren't sure we could sit down at a table for coffee in the piazza in front of the Cathedral.

We spent a few days at Positano four years ago. We didn't feel crowded at all. I didn't see any boats disgorging mobs. We came on a boat from Capri, but it held only a hundred or so passengers.

Perhaps the cruise ships are deterred by the difficulty of access. At the boat dock there are little trains of carts, drawn by mini-tractors, which will take your luggage all the way to your hotel. But people must climb a very long and very steep path to a little square, which is the first place you can get a taxi. I found it tiring and most of the rest of the boat passengers seemed to as well.

Our hotel wasn't crowded, breakfast on the terrace was pleasant, and there were enough restaurants within walking distance for a little variety. Any walking in Positano will be pretty hilly.

We didn't go out onto the coast road which passes above the town, because we didn't have a car. We didn't get a car, since there appeared to be a permanent traffic jam on it.

When we left we hired a car to take us to the train station in Naples. The driver knew enough back roads and short cuts to avoid getting stuck in traffic. I didn't follow our track on Google Maps, but Larisa nodded in approval a few times. She had been over the whole area years before on her motorcycle.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 4:48:21
 
Escribano

Posts: 5862
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

We spent a few days at Positano four years ago. We didn't feel crowded at all.


It is Amalfi that gets packed, as the boats arrive from Salerno. Go just around the corner to Atrani and it's much quieter. I was there in May last year.

Capri gets around 20,000 a day in the Summer and is under a lot of pressure from boat trippers.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 10:16:39
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 442
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to RobF

When we went to Capri in late September a few years ago the most peaceful place was on the chair lift up to Monte Solero from Anacapri. Not down the bottom, nor up the top. Apart from a farmer using a strimmer the only sound was of a cockerel crowing somewhere down below. This was in comparison to old Napoli where the vibe was more like being involved in The Deer Hunter.
There was still a lot of pressure from organised tourists off the boats - I doubt these were instagrammers (it was 2011) but the pressure to consume was obviously high. I wondered how many times a site was enjoyed rather than registered and looked at through a lens. I had to stop myself often.
In Japanese if you want to say you have been somewhere you say 'I went, the fact exists'. Or in English, 'done that'.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 12:01:07
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2811
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to BarkellWH

Speaking of tourists whose only objective is to record themselves at some site with a "selfie," this year there have been three visitors to Arizona's Grand Canyon who stood too near the edge of the canyon and fell off, killing themselves, while trying to take a "selfie" with the canyon as a backdrop.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 13:55:42
 
Mark2

Posts: 1466
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to RobF

I work in San Francisco so I know what effect tourists can have on a city. But, I can easily avoid them-I don't drive down Lombard st. , don't hang out at pier 39, and rarely go to fisherman's wharf. Being a small businessman, I appreciate the revenue they bring to the town, and although I don't directly benefit, businesses, as well as local government, spend that money all over town, and a piece of it ends up in my account.

Parts of this thread sound like old guys bemoaning the fact that everything was better thirty years ago, and I tend to agree. Costa Rica was better the first time I went, and so was Kauai. Venice was magic thirty-five years ago. Housing was way cheaper in SF, and hell, I was younger and better looking too! I miss the city that I grew up in, and hate the current trends, but the past isn't coming back. I don't HAVE to fight the hordes to see Granada, I can garden in my backyard while listening to great flamenco artists.

As to the "show", my feeling is that the guitarist who is employed in the tourist trap tablo, is able to stay home and practice instead of working a day gig. Sure he'd rather be playing elsewhere, but he's playing for a living, and should appreciate at least the revenue from the tourist, if not the tourist himself.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 18:13:15
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1540
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Mark2

quote:

Venice was magic thirty-five years ago


Does anyone here read Donna Leon? According to one of her books, Venice’s harbours are being gradually being wrecked by huge tourist cruisers that they just aren’t equipped to deal with; but no one want to ban them and lose the revenue.

She is of course a long-time resident, so I imagine she would know…
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 21:19:07
 
Escribano

Posts: 5862
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Paul Magnussen

Wouldn't surprise me. It's a double-edged weapon. You need the money but it will also destroys you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 21:32:17
 
Escribano

Posts: 5862
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Mark2

quote:

Parts of this thread sound like old guys bemoaning the fact that everything was better thirty years ago


Without doubt it was, at least in this aspect. I worked in Cupertino/San Jose in the early 90s and hung out in SF a lot. It's changed beyond recognition by all accounts. But that is tech. not tourism so much. Another bête noire of mine and I work in that

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 21:35:25
 
Mark2

Posts: 1466
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Escribano

SF has changed so much since I grew up. It's not just tech-the politicos have been working on changing it for decades. They are the ones who gave tax breaks to tech firms to re-locate here, and in doing so drove out the lower income folks like musicians, artists, etc who gave the city some of the character it had.

Recently it was reported that the city has more homeless folks than high school students. There are many many people shooting up, passing out, defecating, and camping on the sidewalks. The police are impotent, castrated by excessively liberal politics.

AirbnB, uber, and lyft have done their part to lower the quality of life as well. 40k ride share drivers enter the city every day, a city that measures 7 miles x 7 miles. It's a cluster u know what. And yet, in driving around the state, and reading about Seattle and Portland, it seems that many of the same issues are prevalent elsewhere as well.

They have ruined SF IMO. Sky high prices, horrendous traffic, self serving politicians, and city department heads who think social engineering is part of their job. It's hard to watch.

I know a fellow who is an artist-second generation craftsman of fine furniture and antique restoration. I've seen articles about his expertise and artistry. Last week he told me he could no longer afford the rent on his work space, which was high by most standards, but not at market. He said his peers have all had to leave the city. He grew up here. So messed up. My musician buddies have almost all fled to the east bay, or even further out, in order to survive.

When I retire I could move away, but I have a daughter and a grandchild here. I live in a small town 20 minutes from the city and five minutes from the beach. Hard to upgrade when you've got it good. But I'm in the minority-one of the lucky ones.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

Parts of this thread sound like old guys bemoaning the fact that everything was better thirty years ago


Without doubt it was, at least in this aspect. I worked in Cupertino/San Jose in the early 90s and hung out in SF a lot. It's changed beyond recognition by all accounts. But that is tech. not tourism so much. Another bête noire of mine and I work in that
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 22:40:25
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1322
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Escribano

Will all of the recent deaths on Mt. Everest stop the rush of tourists eager to climb to it's peak? Probably not. In this case any local, anti-tourist sentiment, such as that being painted on walls in Spain, is insignificant compared to the loss of life during the past month.

What gets me is that all of the people who thought it would be ideal if everyone had the ability to travel, but didn't bother to consider what the consequences would be if it became reality.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 23:22:09
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2811
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Mark2

quote:

SF has changed so much since I grew up. It's not just tech-the politicos have been working on changing it for decades. They are the ones who gave tax breaks to tech firms to re-locate here, and in doing so drove out the lower income folks like musicians, artists, etc who gave the city some of the character it had.

Recently it was reported that the city has more homeless folks than high school students. There are many many people shooting up, passing out, defecating, and camping on the sidewalks. The police are impotent, castrated by excessively liberal politics.


Although I have never lived in San Francisco, I have spent countless stays of three or four days at a time in the city over the past 50 years, usually on my way to and from the Far East or Pacific Islands. It has definitely changed its character from the earlier days thirty or so years ago. I think the extremely liberal politics have been a double-edged sword.

In the early days, as you note in the quote above, the liberal atmosphere attracted musicians, artists, writers, and others, beginning with the Beats--Jack kerouac, Neal Cassidy, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, and others--in the 1950s. But that liberal atmosphere also attracts grifters, panhandlers, drugged out scum, and other assorted low-lifers who detract from life. Yet San Francisco cannot bring itself to tighten up.

Nevertheless, I still enjoy a short visit to San Francisco and always make it a point to drop in on City Lights Book Store on Columbus Avenue (Lawrence Ferlinghetti still owns it and still shows up once in a while), and have dinner at Scoma's Seafood Restaurant at Pier 47. I love to enter Scoma's, proceed to the bar up the stairs on the right and have a couple of beers with the big plate glass window looking out on the water, followed by a wonderful dinner of sole almandine or flounder perfectly prepared.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2019 23:51:54
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2576
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
Capri gets around 20,000 a day in the Summer and is under a lot of pressure from boat trippers.


Larisa came through once again when she showed me what to do at Capri. As soon as you step off the boat from Naples, get into a taxi and go over the mountain to Anacapri. Very few tourists do. When we arrived one early afternoon the town of Capri was being thoroughly trampled by day trippers, but Anacapri was uncrowded, quiet and peaceful.

We checked in to the hotel that billed itself as the oldest in Anacapri. It was run by a beautiful, stylish and well dressed woman who told us her grandmother had started the business by renting out rooms in her house. The staff were attentive, helpful and friendly. The outdoor dining area was in a lemon grove. At lunchtime you were shaded from the sun by an overhead trellis with espaliered branches of lemon trees bearing plentiful fruit. A gentle breeze wafted through. The food was delicious, made from local ingredients.

Larisa loves the beach. I can take it or leave it. She reported so favorably on swimming at the Marina Piccola on the Mediterranean side of the island that I went back with her. Wonderful cool, clear water, a shaded pavilion with chaises longues, cool drinks on order.

On the western edge of the island there is a restaurant with good food and wine and a marvelous distant view of the island of Ischia in the sunset. The waiter told us that most people in the service industry on Capri show up for the tourist season, but spend the rest of the year elsewhere. His preference was Buenos Aires.

On our last evening on the island Larisa suggested we eat dinner on the main square in the town of Capri, after the last boat had left for Naples. The tables in the square were still pretty full, but without waiting we got a balcony table in the restaurant in the clock tower overlooking the square.

The night before we took the boat to Capri we stayed at a fancy hotel in Naples next to the yacht harbor and the fortress. The room was nice, the view was impressive, the food was good, but I got the impression that the staff thought their job was to kiss our asses. This is not a comfortable posture. There are better and more famous hotels where the staff are professional, attentive and helpful without pretending to be obsequious. We didn't run into this anywhere else in Italy.

As a really old guy bemoaning the passing of the good old days, I will say that San Francisco seems to have been changing steadily throughout its history.

I lived in Palo Alto for a while. My girlfriend at the time lived on the ground floor of a triplex on Twin Peaks, with a view down Market Street to the Ferry Building. She owns the building now, but lives in Larkspur across the Golden Gate. She was born and raised in Tokyo until she was 14, and used to joke that San Francisco was a hick town that rolled up its sidewalks at midnight.

We parted amicably in 1991 when I left for Kwajalein. We still see one another once in a while. As a sort of farewell, we went to Acapulco for a couple of weeks. Speaking of change, Acapulco has now been utterly destroyed by gangster extortion, violence and murder, but then it was still vibrant and prospering. She had suggested we go, since her family vacationed there while she was growing up in Tokyo. We stayed at the Ritz, an old respectable place on the beach, not overly expensive, where they had stayed when she was a girl.

In high school in San Francisco my girlfriend's boyfriend was the quarterback of the St. Francis High football team. They were still friends. Occasionally she wore his class ring on a slender chain around her neck. On the plane from Acapulco back to Mexico City a middle aged couple recognized the ring and introduced themselves. They reminisced about growing up in San Francisco, but said they had been displaced by "the others coming in." It's been going on one way or another for quite a while.

A little further back, my father had a liking for the City, developed during a number of visits. I don't think my mother had ever been there. When Dad was 75 in 1979, they spent a week or two in San Francisco. Dad always liked to dress well. When they got back to Texas, he complained that nobody in San Francisco wore a suit any more to go out in the evening. I said I should have warned him that styles had changed in the '60s, the Top of the Mark was pretty much a gay bar, and the roof garden of the Sir Francis Drake was no longer the height of fashion.

Ah, for the good old days...

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2019 3:21:27
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2576
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

I still enjoy a short visit to San Francisco and always make it a point to drop in on City Lights Book Store (Lawrence Ferlinghetti still owns it and still shows up once in a while), and have dinner at Scoma's Seafood Restaurant at Pier 47. I love to enter Scoma's, proceed to the bar up the stairs on the right and have a couple of beers, followed by a wonderful dinner of flounder perfectly cooked.

Bill


Bill--I am still looking forward to dinner at Scoma's with you and Stephen Faulk.

My favorite recollection of cioppino, the Sicilian seafood stew, is from Duarte's Tavern in Pescadero. It's a tiny fishing village a mile back from the sand dunes and bluffs of the coast, 15 or 20 miles south of Half Moon Bay. Their sourdough bread and anchovy salad are great, too.

But a very close second, if not its equal is the cioppino at Scoma's. I was there by myself one mid-afternoon. Few others were in the place. Four or five women from out of town came in, and were seated at the next table. One of them asked me what I was eating. I told her, and recommended it.

Some of them ordered cioppino. It was served in a deep dish, almost like a little bucket, the top of the stew well down from its lip. When the first woman looked in and saw the great variety of critters half submerged in the delicious sauce, she made a small exclamation, and seemed a little fearful of digging in. I reassured her, and they ended by proclaiming it excellent.

Before I discovered Scoma's I used to eat at Alioto's on Fisherman's Wharf. It's not as good as Scoma's, but it's pretty good when it's not overrun by tourists. My sixteen-year old son visited from Texas, where I lived half the time, and I took him to Alioto's.

We ordered. The waiter asked Mark whether he would share the wine. Mark looked a little uncomfortable, so I said he was only sixteen--though by then he was 6'2" tall (1.9m). "I wouldn't like to get you in trouble with the authorities."

"It's OK," the San Francisco Sicilian waiter replied. "You're around the corner from the door, and I can watch for the alcohol cops for you."

"Bring him a glass."

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2019 3:59:43
 
Mark2

Posts: 1466
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Yes, we still have City Lights and Scoma's and they are still magnificent. Scoma's is about the only reason to go to the wharf, and I so occasionally. I'd be pleased to join you gentlemen there for a meal anytime.

I played at the top of the mark for just over a year, and it was not a gay bar then-this was in 2000. In fact, I don't think it was ever a gay bar-I've never heard that. Tough gig cause you have to go to the loading dock and unload your gear, then drive down a huge hill and try to park, walk up the hill, drag the gear down a longish hallway into a very small elevator to get to the room. I was pretty proud of the fact that my quartet, which played mostly original music with no vocalist, held down that gig in what is really the best club gig in town. It ended after 9/11/2001 because no one was flying and no one staying in the hotel.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2019 16:39:12
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2811
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Bill--I am still looking forward to dinner at Scoma's with you and Stephen Faulk.


Richard, I, too, am looking forward to our long-anticipated dinner at Scoma's. I am inclined to come to San Francisco just for the dinner, with a couple additional days to visit friends in the area. You may have noted that Mark would like to join us. What a great evening the four of us will have. Marta would probably come with me and join us for dinner.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2019 19:17:08
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2811
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I'd be pleased to join you gentlemen there for a meal anytime.


We'll keep you in the loop, Mark. What a jolly time to get together at Scoma's for a good meal and great conversation among friends.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2019 19:20:26
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2576
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Flamenco: no es un show! (in reply to Mark2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

I played at the top of the mark for just over a year, and it was not a gay bar then-this was in 2000. In fact, I don't think it was ever a gay bar-I've never heard that.


I can't speak from personal experience. In fact, I've never been there. It was what I was told in the '80s by someone I thought would know. Not that it was exclusive, just a well-known rendezvous--so "gay bar" was probably a misnomer.

In 1979 my father complained of the change in ambience. I think he was first there in 1943, on his way overseas to combat in the Pacific. I remember him mentioning the bar in late 1946, when he returned from the Occupation of Japan. I doubt that he was there between about 1959 and their trip in 1979.

...and "yes" to Scoma's.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2019 1:30:30
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