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Arash

Posts: 4401
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: A church is burning (in reply to sartorius

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 14:30:09
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2826
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: A church is burning (in reply to sartorius

quote:

It is of a HUGE religious significance and most people are missing the point here.... I'm just saddened and sickened by so much ignorance and overweening pride


Your self-absorbed sense of superiority in stating that "most people are missing the point here" and advising us all that you are "sickened by so much ignorance" suggests that you are engaging in projection, the psychological condition of projecting onto others those inadequacies and deficiencies one finds in one's self. In fact, we all know that there was great religious significance attached to Notre Dame, just as we all (except perhaps you) recognize The huge cultural significance Notre Dame has for Western Civilization and indeed the world.

Sometimes it is best to heed Mark Twain's dictum (sometimes attributed to Abraham Lincoln): "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and leave no doubt."

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 16:49:15

Piwin

Posts: 2180
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to flyeogh

Good questions. I don't know if the State will be broadcasting who gave what (I doubt it), but I don't think there's anything you can do to keep individual donors from boasting about it. Some have noted that even the large amounts pledged by Lagardère pale in comparison to the amounts he has (legally) kept out of the State's coffers through so-called "tax optimization". It certainly doesn't help the government right now. It hurts their argument that certain taxes (especially the so-called ISF) on the rich are making life unbearable for them and if we bring those taxes back they'll flee the country. When that's your argument for not taxing the rich, you're better off if they don't decide to give hundreds of millions overnight to this type of cause...

In any event, you may very well be right that some might expect something in return or may be doing it for cynical self-promotion. Though in the end it's up to each individual to sort out what their own motivations are. I've been reading some essays by Joan Didion lately, and she makes some good points about how we often delude ourselves into thinking our motivations are grander than they really are (she says it better, but anyways). So, outside of the more cynical motivations, I'd imagine each of these wealthy donors will have to figure out for themselves whether they're giving for altruistic reasons or whether deep down it's just an exercice in flattering one's own ego.

@Ruphus Agreed, though there are exceptions. Take the late Douglas Tompkins. He's a good example of using private wealth in a way that people concerned about ecology like you and me would be happy with. Though deep down, and I suspect you'd agree with me, I'm still a bit bothered by Tompkins's philanthropy because I can't help but think it shouldn't have been his decision to make. But, well, that'd lead us down yet another long political discussion

@sartorius I'll break with fly's advice just long enough to remark that I made no promises. Yes, I changed my mind. Sometimes I even cancel on dinner plans less than a week in advance! The horror... I don't make promises on the trivial and unimportant. All that does is belittle the meaning of the actual promises I may make. Anyways, carry on.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 17:40:19
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11074
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Arash

quote:

This has nothing to do with pedophile priests, churchs, catholicism, or whatever.


Yes yes, it was a pretty building.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 18:00:48
 
Escribano

Posts: 5869
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Ricardo

It seems everyone argues about everything nowadays and some even spread fake news. I spent a while in the company of Île de la Cité and the Rive Gauche. It is important to me and I will donate. I don't care what others think - they don't have to stump up anything.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 20:36:01

Piwin

Posts: 2180
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Escribano

quote:

everyone argues about everything nowaday


I disagree.

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"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 20:39:16
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2826
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Escribano

quote:

I spent a while in the company of Île de la Cité and the Rive Gauche. It is important to me and I will donate. I don't care what others think - they don't have to stump up anything.


I, too, am glad to contribute.

To call those who recognize the cultural significance of Notre Dame "ignorant" and "missing the point," and to toss off the observation that, in so many words, it was just another building, represents Philistinism at its worst.

Unfortunately, Western society has grown crude and coarse over the last forty or so years, and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Ever dine in a nice restaurant and notice how many patrons under the age of 40 are wearing baseball caps on backwards?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 20:54:37
 
Escribano

Posts: 5869
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: A church is burning (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Ever dine in a nice restaurant and notice how many patrons under the age of 40 are wearing baseball caps on backwards?


They would never get into Le Petit Zinc like that

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 20:58:57

Piwin

Posts: 2180
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Escribano

Just to post the link for donations for those who are interested:
https://don.fondation-patrimoine.org/SauvonsNotreDame/~mon-don

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"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 4:40:13
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2969
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

My thoughts on the matter.

https://youtu.be/_AxDB5YYFTs
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 12:50:41
 
Arash

Posts: 4401
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: A church is burning (in reply to BarkellWH

------------------------------

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 14:11:52
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3736
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Arash

Could it be that those complaining about too much of hairsplitting of spoiled contemporaries who just had nothing better to do ...

Belong to the same fraction who after ignoring humane and ethical discrepancy, now won´t realize ecological disaster either?

-

If a stiff under Wonderland´s blissful door be allowed:

One can fully appreciate World Heritage on the one hand, while noting another clue of sustained surreal routines in the same time.
-

And besides: What if Notre-Dame was indeed fully insured, and the donating effectively serving nothing other than relieving insurance companies, that will have cashed in beforehand?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 15:12:21
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2826
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Arash

quote:

another one believes we should go back 50 years to glory of western civilization and beat the crap out of these undiscplined kids who dared to wear baseball caps backwards (whoever the f. that supposed to be in this discussion and whatever the f. that has anything to do with this subject)


In case you missed it, Arash, my comment how crude and coarse we have become was directed at the crude, coarse language of the poster who considered anyone who did not agree with him "ignorant" and "missing the point." I just expanded on it as an example of a general crudeness and coarseness in our society.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 16:47:18
 
Escribano

Posts: 5869
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

What if Notre-Dame was indeed fully insured, and the donating effectively serving nothing other than relieving insurance companies, that will have cashed in beforehand?


What if it wasn't insured?

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-government-thought-not-to-have-insured-Notre-dame-cathedral-for-fire
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/notre-dame-has-no-insurance-policy-2019-04-16
https://www.thelocal.fr/20190417/will-notre-dames-multi-million-euro-restoration-be-covered-by-insurance

Whilst the building may not be insured, the contents should have been insured by the Church and the contractors had insurance, if it is deemed to be their fault.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 18:10:47
 
Escribano

Posts: 5869
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: A church is burning (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

I just expanded on it as an example of a general crudeness and courseness in our society.


Regrettably, that is the default position, if you do not agree with their opinion. Facts don't matter anymore, Bill.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 18:16:12
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 299
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Escribano

I was thinking about this yesterday - does the concept of Act of God exist in French law?

Sadly the Notre Dame conflagration pales compared to what just happened in Sri Lanka.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 18:24:22
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3736
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

What if Notre-Dame was indeed fully insured, and the donating effectively serving nothing other than relieving insurance companies, that will have cashed in beforehand?


What if it wasn't insured?

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-government-thought-not-to-have-insured-Notre-dame-cathedral-for-fire
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/notre-dame-has-no-insurance-policy-2019-04-16
https://www.thelocal.fr/20190417/will-notre-dames-multi-million-euro-restoration-be-covered-by-insurance

Whilst the building may not be insured, the contents should have been insured by the Church and the contractors had insurance, if it is deemed to be their fault.



Thank you for the info!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 18:35:03

Piwin

Posts: 2180
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to mrstwinkle

I think the closest equivalent is "force majeure". I don't know if it's strictly equivalent to an Act of God though. The three criteria defining a case of "force majeure" in French law are 1) the cause of the event has to be independent of the person harmed by it (extériorité), 2) the event has to be impossible to foresee (imprévisibilité) and 3) the person harmed couldn't have reacted in any other way than he did (irrésistibilité). "Force majeure" most often comes up in cases involving natural disasters or major political upheaval (war).

I doubt the courts would consider this a case of "force majeure", if only because the building hadn't been properly maintained for decades before this happened.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 20:47:14
 
Escribano

Posts: 5869
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

quote:

I think the closest equivalent is "force majeure"


Same in the UK, as a get-out from contractual obligations.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2019 20:57:14
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2600
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Escribano

In 1835 the original timber frame and lead roof of Notre Dame de Chartres burned. It was replaced with cast iron ribs and copper sheathing.

According to old account books my ancestor contributed to vaulting the choir in 1250. The cynical might mention the land now in the Gironde department, inherited from his French grandmother, and his heritable leases on Church land in the Honor of Eye in East Anglia. The religious might cite the family’s long running support of the Roman Church. Neither would have the slightest idea what his true motives may have been.





RNJ

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2019 0:19:18
 
Brendan

Posts: 165
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to BarkellWH

We’re also a lot less racist and homophobic. If a bit more public coarseness is the price of that, I can live with it. The decline in spelling, on the other hand, is unforgivable and will lead to the end of everything worthy and fine.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2019 9:36:24
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2826
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Brendan

quote:

We’re also a lot less racist and homophobic. If a bit more public coarseness is the price of that, I can live with it. The decline in spelling, on the other hand, is unforgivable and will lead to the end of everything worthy and fine.


Agreed, but I fail to see why there must be a trade-off.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2019 13:45:28
 
flyeogh

Posts: 457
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Agreed, but I fail to see why there must be a trade-off.


Bill there surely must be a trade-off. There has always been a trade-off. And there always will be. If not, we wouldn't advance.

Each generation will want change. The good ideas of the past will get battered but survive. The stupid ideas, especially those that were in existence merely to maintain some power group, will be cast aside. New ideas, both great ones and stupid ones will represent the then current generation and equally get sifted in the future.

In the past there was a lot more control over the masses. Organised religions and rich land-owning upper classes ran the roost. The symbols that represented that power were rejected by my generation (e.g. top hats, bowlers, flat caps). And some things, like baseball caps in reverse became a symbol of revolt and change.

An example: I remember Piers Morgan on BGT dressed formally. He sneered at an Australian chicken farmer who walked on stage dressed like an Australian chicken farmer, baseball cap in reverse. 3 minutes later I know who I’d rather share a restaurant with – although I think I already knew before the chicken farmer showed his friendly generous nature and no lack of talent

Another example, Johnny Rotten of the Sex Pistols. He tried to expose Saville in 78 but was silenced by the men in suits. Again I know who I'd share a restaurant with.

In many, many cases appearance hasn't counted for a lot over the years.

Of course, each generation likes to think it left behind positives and doesn’t like to see things important to them being dismantled. And looking back it is all too easy for our memories to paint a rosier picture than the reality of our pasts. But I’m glad I lived in my time and not in that of my father or grandfathers. I’m glad we changed things, even when we got it wrong.

Brendan I don’t think spelling has declined in general, although it may do so locally and within certain groups. Many more people have the ability to read and write as time advances. And these more literate generations not only put pen to paper (in numerous ways), but also can more easily publish and expose their efforts to the masses. I’d suggest an observed decline in spelling is not evidence of declining standards, but evidence of growing literacy.

And technology is now helping to improve spelling and grammar. The students who attend my English classes continually are prompted by technology to improve their grammar and spelling. And it works even when English has so many variants.

Sorry wittering. Just to say I can’t get excited about reverse baseball hats. I'll get my coat

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2019 16:40:42

Piwin

Posts: 2180
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to flyeogh

The trick is to write like a doctor. That way nobody can tell whether you're making mistakes or not.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2019 17:36:07
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1549
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: A church is burning (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

The good ideas of the past will get battered but survive. The stupid ideas, especially those that were in existence merely to maintain some power group, will be cast aside.


The continued existence of several thousand mutually incompatible sets of religious beliefs seems to contradict that…
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2019 22:53:48
 
flyeogh

Posts: 457
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Paul Magnussen

Paul surely most of those “several thousand mutually incompatible sets of religious beliefs” are like the religion of my childhood, Church of England, benign.

In my life various large religions have suffered major setbacks. The atheist community in most parts of the world is becoming very visible (The leader of Spain is openly atheist. Franco will be turning in his grave ).

But these religions, in their benign state do serve as a comfort blanket to many. So, I’d suggest that their existence is not an indication of a lack of change. Their lack of power possibly.

** Removed a bit as not sure if it was going to be interpreted - although was not my intention - as offending someone. I don't think so but just in case.

Back to flamenco for me

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2019 4:58:32
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2600
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: A church is burning (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

ORIGINAL: flyeogh

Bill there surely must be a trade-off. There has always been a trade-off. And there always will be. If not, we wouldn't advance.

Each generation will want change. The good ideas of the past will get battered but survive. The stupid ideas, especially those that were in existence merely to maintain some power group, will be cast aside. New ideas, both great ones and stupid ones will represent the then current generation and equally get sifted in the future.

In the past there was a lot more control over the masses. Organised religions and rich land-owning upper classes ran the roost. The symbols that represented that power were rejected by my generation (e.g. top hats, bowlers, flat caps). And some things, like baseball caps in reverse became a symbol of revolt and change.



My family rebelled against class domination in 1775, and took up arms to throw it off. Many in the second generation after mine are now young adults, and vote for progressive candidates. However, I don't remember seeing any of them wearing their baseball caps backward.

With perhaps a longer personal perspective than yours, I agree that I would rather live in the present day than in the times of my childhood and youth. We are indeed less overtly racist now in the USA than we were in 1950.

But but as you observe, innovation can result in both progress and regression.

For example, in "Identity Crisis: The 2016 Presidential Campaign and the Battle for the Meaning of America," by John Sides, Michael Tesler and Lynn Vavreck, the political scientist authors publish data showing that the fraction of the electorate who expressed racist views in surveys remained the same from 2006 to 2016: about 30%.

However, two factors were decisive in the election of 2016. In 2006 the racists were about evenly distributed between the Democrat and Republican parties. By 2016 they had almost all identified as Republican.

The second factor was that in earlier elections the candidates had spoken in much the same way about race. The racists split between the two parties. In 2016 the racists were given an opportunity by one of the candidates to express their attitudes. The authors of the cited book conclude, based on statistical studies, that both white identity and racism were decisive factors in the composition of the small number of votes in a few key states which gave the presidential winner a substantial majority in the Electoral College.

There was a great deal of innovation in techniques of political communication, and an unprecedented transgression of the racial campaigning norms in place since the defeat of George Wallace in the 1964 Democrat presidential primaries. These innovations were successful, and remain in use.

It remains to be seen when, or whether, these innovations may be cast aside.

I remain hopeful that they will be.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2019 1:00:26
 
BarkellWH

 

Posts: 2826
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2019 15:28:25
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2826
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

The authors of the cited book conclude, based on statistical studies, that both white identity and racism were decisive factors in the composition of the small number of votes in a few key states which gave the presidential winner a substantial majority in the Electoral College.


And yet, studies have demonstrated that several districts in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania that voted overwhelmingly for Trump in 2016 and were decisive in his win over Clinton, voted for Obama in 2012. Political scientists reviewing the results in both elections have concluded that voters in these districts were not voting for Trump out of white identity and racist tendencies (they, after all, voted for Obama in 2012). Rather, they were voting for the candidate they perceived would be in their best economic interest as president. In 2012, they went for Obama, and perceiving their position no better under Obama, in 2016, they went for Trump. Trump of course played this up to the hilt. The upshot, however, is voters in these crucial districts were not necessarily voting for reasons of racism and white identity, but for the candidate they perceived would be in their best economic interest.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2019 15:39:07
 
kitarist

Posts: 546
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Political scientists reviewing the results in both elections have concluded that voters in these districts were not voting for Trump out of white identity and racist tendencies (they, after all, voted for Obama in 2012).


Here's the Washington Post (Myth no.4) summarizing studies some 2 years after 2016, and providing the reason why "they voted for Obama in 2012" is not a good argument why race could not have been a deciding factor; in fact it was:

"In fact, racial attitudes were the prism through which voters thought about economic outcomes — something we call “racialized economics.” For example, after Obama became president, attitudes toward blacks suddenly became linked with people’s views on the economy: the less favorable their view of blacks, the less favorable their view of the economy."

and

"In the general election, the belief that split Trump and Clinton supporters was not whether “average Americans have gotten less than they deserve.” Majorities of both groups agreed. Instead, the dividing line was whether they thought “blacks have gotten less than they deserve”: Fifty-seven percent of Clinton supporters agreed, but only 12 percent of Trump supporters did."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/myths-about-the-2016-presidential-election/2018/10/05/4e07a22a-c808-11e8-b2b5-79270f9cce17_story.html

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2019 16:58:10
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