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Piwin

Posts: 2209
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

A church is burning 

Pretty crazy (and sad):
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ceciliarodriguez/2019/04/16/pariss-notre-dame-cathedral-disfigured-images-of-fire-and-aftermath-shocking-the-world/#25ce3e052545

Dunno what happened. Back when the cathedral in my home town burnt down, the fire started because they were welding metal components over the wooden frame. The pyrolysis spread for quite a while before reaching a section exposed to air (if memory serves the workers had already left the site for the day). So when there was finally a real indication of what was going on, it was already too late. But that was decades ago, I kind of figure they must have found some work-around to that problem by now.

One of the luthiers on here (sorry but I forget who) talked about how he viewed the wood he worked with as part of the life cycle of the tree, taking on a more holistic view of the raw material he works with. The upper frame of Notre-Dame, known as "the forest", included wood from the original frame (which had been replaced, but some of the original wood was reutilized), wood from trees dating back to the 9th century AD. Most of that is now ash. Still, that's quite a life! Lots of history in that place.

_____________________________

L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2019 14:40:08
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3741
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

It´s been stated that the roof can´t be rebuilt in the original way, for there existing no corresponding trees in size.

Carpenters used to plant oaks for future generations while cutting down up to over 1000 years old ones that had been provided accordingly by predecessors.

As I mentioned somewhere else: Today 'unthinkable' and in the same time worth a thought as to how and why that is.
-

Last year hundreds of churches were attacked in France. Always by uneducated mentality, traditionally void of whatsoever consideration.
Another thought worth considering. Not just if Notre-Dame turned out to have been purposely set on fire.

It has been a huge mistake to stop enlightenment, and to proceed to pampering retard superstition.

Human right in the first place is the very one to know.
Fixing act of believing comes in way afterwards.

These two have been swapped in order of relvance to the reanimation of dark age. With retardation infiltrating all over western hemisphere, already having had effects on custom, and yet to come and bite in the butt civilization that doesn´t understand actual and prime pillars of humanism anymore.
Banning fascism of blood & honor, while building temples for the other one of worshiping immunity to education.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2019 16:58:30
 
sartorius

Posts: 189
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

Paris Notre-Dame Cathedral burning at the beginning of the Holy Week? This IS a sign. But what is to be understood? I asked the question and here's what I was told:

"Notre-Dame is the soul of France. Notre-Dame is burning, so is France's soul, burning into perdition." And as if it wasn't enough:

"The unthinkable has just happened. Now prepare for the unimaginable to happen..."

Judgement Day is nearing as described in Revelation.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2019 6:44:48
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3741
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Ruphus

Having just re-read my post: Seems it could be understood as if it was bluster against Notre-Dame.

Thus I like to add that inspite of background of churches that turned the message of a man (if he existed as singular personality, which historically is not proven) of peace, joy and civil courage into its practically diametrical opposite; I always appreciate historical / ancient artifacts and the often times incredibly troublesome efforts that once went into them.

It literally hurt me to see this building burning.
Not at last also for personal nostalgic feelings.
-First time I saw it, me must have been 8 years old or so.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2019 9:14:29
 
flyeogh

Posts: 472
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Ruphus

"A number of companies and business tycoons have pledged hundreds of millions of euros between them towards the restoration effort."

Cheap tickets to heaven available. Ticket Office open.


Of course they could invest that money in creating sustainable economies in poverty stricken areas which would lead to better education, health and security. But that doesn't come with quite the same publicity

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2019 11:28:42
 
tele

Posts: 1404
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to flyeogh

In France has been registered 128 attacks against churches within the past 5 months, these are really sad times. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't an accident.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2019 12:07:23

Piwin

Posts: 2209
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to flyeogh

Not disagreeing with you, but there is an upside for the taxpayer. Notre-Dame belongs to the State, so the restoration work would be paid by public funds, i.e. the taxpayer's wallet. So if rich people, either French or foreign, want to pay for it, that's fine by me!

@tele It's hard to make sense of the numbers that have been coming out on "attacks" on churches. The numbers given by the Ministry of the Interior lump everything in together. So in that number you have cases of vandalism/stealing, even a few cases of actual violence, and then you have things like a group of teenagers graffitiing an anarchist "A" on the outside wall. The Ministry also doesn't give us a breakdown per "reason", so, if we just take the case of graffitis (which I'm guessing is a pretty big share of it), we don't know whether (to take the 3 big ones) they're drawing swastikas, anarchist symbols or some anti-Christian message motivated by belief in Islam. It does seem to be getting worse, but my hunch is that it's not nearly as dramatic as some are making it out to be. As for Notre-Dame, I won't exclude the possibility that it was an act of willful destruction until they've investigated, but it seems very unlikely, just going on the fact that this type of accidental fire on the roof section of a church is unfortunately fairly common.

_____________________________

L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2019 14:59:01
 
flyeogh

Posts: 472
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Not disagreeing with you, but there is an upside for the taxpayer. Notre-Dame belongs to the State, so the restoration work would be paid by public funds, i.e. the taxpayer's wallet. So if rich people, either French or foreign, want to pay for it, that's fine by me!


Very good point Piwin. I like someone who sees a silver lining

But the priorities of the world I think just show how greedy, selfish and stupid the majority of the population are.

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2019 17:12:48
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2836
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: A church is burning (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

Cheap tickets to heaven available. Ticket Office open. Of course they could invest that money in creating sustainable economies in poverty stricken areas which would lead to better education, health and security. But that doesn't come with quite the same publicity


I take your point, flyeogh, but Notre Dame is part of the cultural heritage not only of France but indeed of Western Civilization and the world. I have no problem in people contributing to its restoration, be they wealthy or not.

Frankly, there have been billions of dollars and untold numbers of man-hours spent in aid projects in the underdeveloped world and much of it has been wasted, not least because, in my opinion, development requires a critical mass of certain cultural attributes in the targeted population that by and large is missing. Until a country reaches a certain level of income, a certain size in its middle class, and has genuinely cemented an institutional framework that includes the rule of law, a rational economic system, and other attributes that lead to development, throwing money at it does little good.

There are other things in much of the developing world that impede its advancement such as a low level of social capital, the widespread belief that it is a zero-sum game (my neighbor's gain is my loss), and lack of follow-through once the initial aid projects are completed (ever see what happens to everything from buses to heavy equipment when it is not maintained? It usually stays on the side of the road forever). A critical mass is needed for development to occur and be maintained, and I'm afraid much of the developing world lacks it. We cannot do it for them. The best we can do is assist on the margins, but they must do the heavy lifting.

In any case, I am glad to see people of whatever means contributing to the restoration of one of Western Civilization's and mankind's treasures.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2019 18:32:14
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3741
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

All true, albeit with a couple of items missing in the sterile picture.

-Aside of generally known developing countrie´s preconditions like from colonial past and continued policies afterwards.

Like the fact that the vast of states based aid projects are serving for transformation into private kick backs returned by despots / war lords alike after having consensually taken their own hefty share from transfers beforehand.

Further, intentionally void supervision that tends to allow paramilitaries alike to snatch vast measures of natural produce shippings for feeding their troops while the rest of the batches will be found as expensive offerings on receiving countries' markets.

And sometimes money won´t even cross borders at all to begin with, like with those USD 8 billion of donations for reconstruction in Iraq which evaporated already within the UN, without investigations to have ever taken place.

While considerable slicing for alleged internal management costs and vanishing of funds in NGOs presenting an old hat anyway. (Including Red Cross etc.)

Meanwhile, of the donations fraction that overcomes all of the Black Holes on the way, much would (I say "would" because this used to be happening much more in former times than say in the last ~ 25 years or so) be invested in foreseeable kinds of projects that could certainly not become competitive. Like for instance installment of a shoe factory where there was no leather material around at all.

The most harmless of contributions being the well known cases of subsidized sendings of chicken giblets or textiles to Africa which then would knock out local production.


These kind of circumstances add substantially to the chapter of aid projects.
Projects which in terms of efficiency and effects won´t correlate to initial financial raises nor compare in the slightest to late, integer and highly efficient undertakings like of conveying means and knowhow for either fish farming or solar lighting for remote villages that are off the grid. (Which are taking place on small scale through universities´ initiatives, yet being very helpful and sustaining.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 1:40:02
 
sartorius

Posts: 189
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't an accident.



Of course it isn't. When you want something/someone to disappear with no risks of legal pursuits you make it happen as 'an accident'. And when you want no evidence to be left you burn the whole thing. Well proven tactics. I won't get into an explanation of the plot against Notre-Dame (and against Christianity in the world today) because ignorance, skepticism, doubtfulness and the shameless pride of the know-alls have already taken the world over.

Damage is irreversible and a rebuild will never make it like it was before, despite the dozens of milions promised. The 'forest',as it was called, used wood that you can't find these days. Sure they will come with a carbon/glass structure project and another Louvres-inspired masonic pyramid or symbol of the same origin.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 6:52:50
 
flyeogh

Posts: 472
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to sartorius

quote:

Of course it isn't.


I know Tele used a double negative - always a bit dodgy when you want clarity - but I have no idea what you are saying.

Probably just me but could you clarify? I'd appreciate it as it sounds interesting stuff.

As for recreating it as it was I can't see any point in that. Most cathedrals have changed continually over the years. And as you say it will never be the same unless you have a time machine to go back and get the artisans and materials who worked on it through the centuries

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 8:52:36
 
Ruphus

 

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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 19 2019 10:03:40
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 14:59:36

Piwin

Posts: 2209
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Ruphus

Just a BS internet conspiracy again. The man's a firefighter. Here's the passage:
https://youtu.be/XljT1he8Jjo?t=2517
As you can see there were quite a few firefighters up there. Anyways, I'm done with this thread. I regret having opened it in the first place.

_____________________________

L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 15:14:10
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3741
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

Found another link:
https://factcheck.afp.com/suspicious-person-tower-notre-dame-no-firefighter-inspecting-blaze
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 15:16:21
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3741
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

Just a BS internet conspiracy again. The man's a firefighter. Here's the passage:
https://youtu.be/XljT1he8Jjo?t=2517
As you can see there were quite a few firefighters up there. Anyways, I'm done with this thread. I regret having opened it in the first place.

Indeed.
The video that was shown last night was insidiously prepared.
As I just realized, it was not showing the whole width (about half of it) and looping and zooming exclusively on the single guy´s appearance.

I do find the case strange in sight of diverse surrounding / preceding conditions, but such video preparation is indeed stupid BS.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 15:27:38
 
sartorius

Posts: 189
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

ORIGINAL: flyeogh

As for recreating it as it was I can't see any point in that. Most cathedrals have changed continually over the years.


Reims cathedral was restored to its identical former glory after WWI bombings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 15:55:55
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 848
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: A church is burning (in reply to sartorius

quote:

I won't get into an explanation of the plot against Notre-Dame (and against Christianity in the world today) because ignorance, skepticism, doubtfulness and the shameless pride of the know-alls have already taken the world over.

Oddly you're the one that appears to be the know-it-all here.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 15:56:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11097
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

Does anybody know if the hunchback made it out in time???

I used to defend the church in general.... but recently it’s been revealed to be nothing more than an institutionalized mega human trafficking ring from top to bottom, now with cardinal pel number 3 in the Vatican going down w the rest. How about use the rebuild money to begin rebuilding the lives of the countless victims of the rapist priest that number in the thousands at present and only increasing? While we are at it start dismantling all the other religious organizations that have been engaging in the same activities world wide? That’s LOTS of nice guitar wood imo.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 16:10:36

Piwin

Posts: 2209
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Ricardo

Dunno, but the hashtag "JesuisQuasi" made the rounds for a while ^^

The Abbé Pierre fondation has thanked donors but asked them to contribute "just 1% more to help the needy". Abbé Pierre's funeral was held in Notre-Dame. This was largely seen as a peace offering from a Church leadership that despised the man, to a French population who, religious and non-religious alike, adored him, to the point of almost creating a myth out of him. His body now rest under a bronze cross that he had found in a dump. I'd imagine that if he were still alive today, he would have some strong words to say to the Church leadership about where their priorities lie. His focus was mainly on the homeless. And it is still a sadly striking fact that there are many people living and dying on the streets of Paris, while there is an increasing amount of perfectly habitable buildings that remain empty, merely used for speculation on the real estate market.

@Ruphus no worries. I'm just not in the mood to go down the route of "the plot against Notre-Dame and against Christianity" (not you, but geez I swear some people...). Ffs the man apparently doesn't see the contradiction in saying "the doubtfulness (...) of the know-alls"... To me it's a pretty good indication that someone is merely speaking out of hatred when the criticism is voiced equally for the exact opposite qualities... Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

_____________________________

L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 16:46:45
 
kitarist

Posts: 557
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

Just a BS internet conspiracy again. The man's a firefighter. Here's the passage:
https://youtu.be/XljT1he8Jjo?t=2517
As you can see there were quite a few firefighters up there. Anyways, I'm done with this thread. I regret having opened it in the first place.

Indeed.
The video that was shown last night was insidiously prepared.
As I just realized, it was not showing the whole width (about half of it) and looping and zooming exclusively on the single guy´s appearance.

I do find the case strange in sight of diverse surrounding / preceding conditions, but such video preparation is indeed stupid BS.



Well take it down then! What is the point of acknowledging you just helped popularize a nasty hoax and yet not taking action to fix your mistake by deleting it from the foro?

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 16:51:02
 
Escribano

Posts: 5899
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

With the division of state from the church in France (laïcité) since 1905, the Notre-Dame belongs to the state.

I support donations for restoring a building of such cultural significance. I also donate to other causes.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2019 20:01:25
 
flyeogh

Posts: 472
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

quote:

I'm just not in the mood to go down the route of "the plot against Notre-Dame and against Christianity"


Piwin I think many posts have been interesting. You can't help people who post and say nothing, or caste aspersions without evidence. But you can ignore them


ps Anyway I must get back to the flat earth forum. Some people think the world is round!!!!!!

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2019 8:25:57
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3741
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

Got your drift, Piwin! Thanks for explaining.
-

I too am all for restoring the Cultural Heritage of the World.

Hoping it may be done as much to original ways as possible, and NOT by replacing anything through contemporary creativity.

And I wished restoration for an exception would not serve as common opportunity for radically milking off through states / communal projects, which has evolved into grotesque insolence of billing with public structural and civil engineering.
Announcing itself already with half a billion EUR of donations that obviously are supposed to not suffice by far from get go.

In the same time there was a claim according to which the Notre-Dame was fully insured. If that be true, collecting aims at clearing insurance of charge.

-While it would have been interesting to see how much repair would had cost under actually serious invitations to bid, price checks, controlling and negotiations.

I´d estimate ~ under 10% of what public orders tend to end up with.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2019 10:43:16

Piwin

Posts: 2209
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Escribano

As do I. Lemonde reported that the donations received for Notre-Dame in just 3 days exceeded the donations received per year by the 10 biggest charities in France combined. Not sure what to conclude from that. A large chunk of that money came from billionaires and their corporations. Part of that gap is probably just the fact that more and more corporations don't donate to pre-existing charities anymore, and instead create their own, with varying degrees of autonomy. I don't know how effective those charities are, but I'll admit I'm more skeptical about them than I am about non-corporate NGOs.

@flyeogh You're a wiser man than I am! But yeah, I can always try.

@Ruphus on the "contemporary" bit, I haven't been following it closely but apparently there are some difficult decisions to make. For instance, the spire that fell was built by Viollet-le-Duc in the 19th century. Apparently his spire was quite different from the one that preceded it. So there are some open questions as to what should be done, even if the decision is to stick to the "traditional" architecture of the cathedral. Should they rebuild the Viollet-le-Duc spire or rebuild the spire that was there before that?

_____________________________

L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2019 17:31:26
 
flyeogh

Posts: 472
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

quote:

For instance, the spire that fell was built by Viollet-le-Duc in the 19th century. Apparently his spire was quite different from the one that preceded it. So there are some open questions as to what should be done, even if the decision is to stick to the "traditional" architecture of the cathedral. Should they rebuild the Viollet-le-Duc spire or rebuild the spire that was there before that?


Piwin a good point I think. Here a couple more:

How can it be rebuilt to be less likely to burndown again (or be subject to future natural forces or manmade forces such as pollution)?
How can it be improved to have better acoustics, or any other way it can be more easily used by the people (e.g. tourism, arts, education)?

My issues with the very large donations (and bear in mind they are no more than promises at this time) are:

Who are they trying to impress? The people, the church hierarchy, the French state, god.
Will the donations be anonymous?
Will those who donate want a payback?

And out of interest I'd like to know if they would offer similar amounts if the Palace of Versailles had been burnt down?
Or even if the only large hospital in a friendly developing, poor country had been the subject.

I have nothing against public funding, or the church or French state contributing. And large anonymous donations from private people as long as we know it isn’t laundered money or from dubious sources.

But how come the press are saying that Donald Trump will personally contribute, and the ArcelorMittal company are offering to help? Are we meant to believe there is no promotional benefit to these people?

But maybe I’m just sceptical.

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2019 18:40:18
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3741
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

Piwin,

Provided there exist precise images / plans of the former spire, I would think it of sense to rebuild that one.

All due respect and appreciation that I feel for Notre-Dame aside:
The half Billion of EUR that was promised within one day from French super rich, proves one other time how disrupted from the world these mind-sets are, considering what such a sum alone could have achieved as measure taken against extinction of the most endangered, higher developed species.

That kind of careless cluelessness is beyond words.
I have no word for it since so many decades.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 2:21:12
 
sartorius

Posts: 189
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin

My sayings were grounded:


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 11:35:51
 
Arash

Posts: 4402
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Escribano

.............

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 13:08:59
 
sartorius

Posts: 189
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: A church is burning (in reply to Arash

quote:







It is not so much about religious signifance,...



It is of a HUGE religious significance and most people are missing the point here because, may I remind you that Jesus Christ’s crown of thorns was among the prized relics saved from the inferno in Notre Dame cathedral this week?

I'm just saddened and sickened by so much ignorance and overweening pride so I won't appear in this thread again and, contrary to Piwin, I will stick to my promise!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2019 13:22:11
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