Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira and Philip John Lee who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Worried I ruined my guitar by getting the action lowered   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
nikgogl

 

Posts: 35
Joined: Jul. 4 2011
 

Worried I ruined my guitar by gettin... 

I have a very nice Marvi blanca with incredible sound but it also had a very highl (5-6 mm) action. To help with playability, I had the action lowered at a reputable repair shop.

I just got it back and the guitar sounds metallic and cheap, and the trebles are noticeably quieter. Did they mess up the repair or is this just the result of a lower action? Anything I can do to fix this?

Quite concerned :/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 4:05:42
 
Echi

 

Posts: 572
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Worried I ruined my guitar by ge... (in reply to nikgogl

Hi,
It’s important to understand if your luthier just shaved down the bridge bone or if he made more invasive work on the fretboard .
The action is conventionally measured from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the E string.
3 mm is the average action for a flamenco guitar, while 4 mm for a classical. This is just an approximation but 5 mm is outside any acceptable range for a flamenco guitar.
The buzzes are an obvious consequence of the low action. You may have it increased if you prefer a cleaner sound.
Anyway nothing is compromised and btw I am a big fan of Marvi.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 8:28:12
 
Arash

Posts: 4401
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Worried I ruined my guitar by ge... (in reply to nikgogl

did he also put new strings on ? if so which type of strings? which tension? which brand ? carbon, nylon?`etc.
could also be a reason. ask him if you don't know.
some strings and tensions sound like complete garbage on my guitar.

if he did not change the strings and just put your old ones back on it, which strings and tension did you use before?

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 15:37:47
 
nikgogl

 

Posts: 35
Joined: Jul. 4 2011
 

RE: Worried I ruined my guitar by ge... (in reply to Arash

Echi - he shaved down the bridge and a bit of the nut. That makes sense, though I wouldn’t even say it’s “buzzing”. Just more of a cheap, tinny sound. But maybe I’m just not hearing it well.

Arash - that’s a good point on the strings. I originally had EJ45 classical strings on and I believe he replaced them with EJ25 flamenco strings. I wouldn’t have though there’d be that much difference but it’s possible!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 16:16:09
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3034
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Worried I ruined my guitar by ge... (in reply to nikgogl

Maybe you don’t like flamenco

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 18:36:12
 
NewPlayer

 

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 29 2012
From: San Francisco

RE: Worried I ruined my guitar by ge... (in reply to nikgogl

I had a similar experience. My guitar sounded amazing, but a bit too high action, so I took down the saddle to about 2.5mm and now, it plays like butter, but I have lost some of the bite/ brightness. Overall, I' ll accept the sacrifice because the guitar plays so well and is muy comfortable.
The only answer I see in order to get the bite back, is to try different strings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 19:06:11
 
kitarist

Posts: 546
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Worried I ruined my guitar by ge... (in reply to nikgogl

quote:

ORIGINAL: nikgogl

I have a very nice Marvi blanca with incredible sound but it also had a very high (5-6 mm) action.


Are you sure that the 5-6mm is the GAP at the 12th fret between the top of the fret wire and the bottom of the string rather than some other measurement? I can't believe Marvi would build a flamenco (or classical) guitar with 6mm action.

If this is indeed what it showed, measured as in the picture, I suspect it was indicative of some other issues - bent neck?



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 19:51:10
 
Echi

 

Posts: 572
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Worried I ruined my guitar by ge... (in reply to nikgogl

How is the action now? If it’s now 3 mm at the 12th it means that the luthier went down of 4 mm at the bridge and the sound got a tiny less round and powerful. Not that much but enough.
You should try EJ 46 D’addario as probably your right hand is accustomed to more tension. Hopefully this would correct a little.
I experienced something similar myself on occasions and also read about this throughout the years (also Alan Carruth wrote about this phenomenon) and it seems to have something to do both with the strings angle and with the lateral torque of the bridge on the top.

5 mm is a high action even for a classical guitar according to the modern standard (old Ramirez used to have 5 mm as standard and that’s one of the reasons their price is quite low in the 2nd hand market).
The reason for such a classical setting lies probably on a wrong neck angle (either because of a human error or because of a special order).

If you are not happy anyway you have to options: either to sell your guitar (to me possibly ) or to work on the strings geometry).
In the second case bring back your guitar to the luthier and ask him to raise up the action at the bridge with a new bone (probably 1 or 2 mm more are enough but he sure the distance string-top is at least 7 mm at the bridge) and to work the frets (or eventually the fretboard) to fix the action at the 12th fret.
If the “pulsacion” of the top is soft, 3.5 mm of action are perfectly fine.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2019 8:12:23
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1423
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Worried I ruined my guitar by ge... (in reply to nikgogl

You can also try some kind of tie block system like this for example:

https://www.rosetteguitarproducts.com/new-page/

This way you increase your brake angle like it was more or less before. (and still have low action)

What I have learned from the builders here, the brake angle over the bone to the hole, may not be less than 20%.

And a tip for all....never buy a guitar before you have tried it on
+/_ 3mm. Whatever the seller say.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2019 8:37:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11074
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Worried I ruined my guitar by ge... (in reply to nikgogl

quote:

ORIGINAL: nikgogl

Echi - he shaved down the bridge and a bit of the nut. That makes sense, though I wouldn’t even say it’s “buzzing”. Just more of a cheap, tinny sound. But maybe I’m just not hearing it well.

Arash - that’s a good point on the strings. I originally had EJ45 classical strings on and I believe he replaced them with EJ25 flamenco strings. I wouldn’t have though there’d be that much difference but it’s possible!


The nut only affects the action at first fret.... it should never be lowered or it makes open strings buzz. 1 mm string to fingerboard is what I see on almost every normal guitar. You might need to shim it back up if that happened.

Lower action always decreases sound output, but that is all other factor equal, and unfortunately the sacrifice for playability. It’s a delicate balance. The guitar was not ruined, it’s easy to raise up on your own using shims under the saddle until you get it exactly as you want. Always keep two different bones around to swap out during different seasons if this issue bothers you. Put the old brand strings on to have a true comparison, it’s also a huge factor.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2019 12:55:38
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 1839
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Worried I ruined my guitar by ge... (in reply to nikgogl

quote:

ORIGINAL: nikgogl

I have a very nice Marvi blanca with incredible sound but it also had a very highl (5-6 mm) action. To help with playability, I had the action lowered at a reputable repair shop.

I just got it back and the guitar sounds metallic and cheap, and the trebles are noticeably quieter. Did they mess up the repair or is this just the result of a lower action? Anything I can do to fix this?

Quite concerned :/



Marvi builds good guitars, so I hear, and anytime you mess with the action or string height and tension, you will get a definite response; some times good and sometimes not so good.

What you were used to hearing was decided by the top being married to the string torque. Perhaps Marvi built his guitar to relax with age, with the fingerboard becoming a little concave and this is turn would allow you to lower the string action without having to address any other facet of the guitar's operational value.

However, if you got the guitar with this much string clearance at the 12th fret, without the bridge saddle being high enough to lower the action into its proper placement, then you have a problem. And depending on how much work was needed to get proper balance, could effect the tonal quality.

So, as was said before, check the nut and install the original string tension to see if that will improve the tonal value.

The more work you do to repair a guitar, the more it will change, and to risk this on a known quality builder's work, is never a good idea.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2019 16:51:01
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

4.736328E-02 secs.